About Butchery, Trolls and Dragons

[Bearserker]

I've a few short questions about butchery :

- When a monster dies, what is the probability it lets a corpse ? (for each case... Mutagenic corpses seems rarer)
- When the corpse is butchered, what is the probability it lets a skin (animal skin, troll hide or dragon hide) ?
- When using Animate Skeleton, may a skin appears ? What is the probability it happens ?

- In each of Vault 8 or Zot levels, what is the probability a Gold Dragon spawns ?
- When using Kiku's corpse delivery in these levels, what is the probability a Gold Dragon corpse appears ? (Is it the same)

Actually, I mainly want to know if we can rely on Kiku to get a Gold Dragon Armour during end-game.
- If yes, is it intended or apparented to grinding ?

- Generally speaking, about, Dragon armours and their place in the game design, why is the Gold Dragon Armour far better than the others (offering 3 useful resistances instead of one, and a huge GDR).

[BlackSheep]

There's a 50/50 chance of a monster leaving a corpse. Mutagenic corpses are rarer, though I don't know the exact odds on those and can't look it up at the moment. If a corpse can leave a hide, there's a 2/3 chance that butchering it will leave one. Butchering with animate skeleton is the same as butchering with 'c'.

Gold Dragon Armour is far from "far better than the others". If you fixate only on what it grants and ignore what it takes away, you lose sight of the bigger picture.

[Davion Fuxa]

From what I can tell, getting a Dragon Corpse of any type delivered from Kiku is fairly rare outside of Zot, and if you haven't got an End Game Armor by the time you go to Zot then you probably shouldn't be wasting Piety to get it before the Orb Run when you may run into Tormentors since it will likely not help you much against them.

[njvack]

Short answer: you probably don't want a GDA. If you're with Kiku, you really very probably don't want GDA.

Longer answer: I'm pretty sure the chance is 2/3 chance for a hide, 1/2 for corpse drop. Mutagenic corpses are indeed rarer; this was a somewhat odd nerf to using fulsome distillation to play oodles of mutation roulette. GDA is not particularly good -- it takes a whooooole lot of enchant scrolls to have a high AC, and the huge EVP means that any casting whatsoever in it is really hard. In most cases, a medium dragon armour is great, or if you want heavier armour, a plate with a decent resist or crystal. By the time GDA becomes available, you probably would have been better off enchanting something 20 dungeon levels ago.

[nago]

Mutagenic corpse drop rate has been lowered some versions ago, to limit mutation roulette - I think it's actually 1/3.

I don't know how corpses are chosen when using kiku's ability - except they're appropriate for the branch and level. Anyway, considering its low piety cost you can easily spam it until you get a gda.

I don't consider either GDA far better than other armour. To explain a little more: firstly, gda can usually acquired only in v:8 or in zot, namely end-game. This mean you're saving all your ?enchant armour until then, so you have had a much worse AC for most of the game, or you're going to lose a lot of ac for some pip of resistance you usually already have at that point of the game.

Furthermore, it's has a huge ev penalty and therefore impairs significantly spellcasting - getting haste, blink and other buffing spell is usually much better.

Finally, rpois isn't a important resistance and rc+ is highly situational - excluding a couple of dangerous enemy and places, all the game can be easily done without any rc - a swappable source of it's enough in most of the branches of the game.

[Bearserker]

Gold Dragon Armour is far from "far better than the others". If you fixate only on what it grants and ignore what it takes away, you lose sight of the bigger picture.

I Agree... I was only considering I'm playing an ogre who don't care about dodging and spellcasting.
It seems having 27 in str and armour skill offsets very well the spellcasting penalties (I just lost such an ogre in hell but his gold dragon armour didn't impeded so much his poor spellcasting aptitude).
Whereas I admit getting 27 in str is the goal of very few characters, a gold Dragon armour seems to be "far better" for every build that fits in this category.

So to be more accurate, I should reformulate my question in :
- Is it intended that a Gold Dragon Armour is far better than the others if our character gets a strength of 27 ?

[TehDruid]

Why is the Gold Dragon Armour far better than the others (offering 3 useful resistances instead of one, and a huge GDR)?

Better is a very relative term.

If you're playing under Trog or without spells in any way, you'd still prefer Crystal Plate on races that can wear it instead of GDA. Resistances are nice to have, sure, and rPois will save you lots of curing potions, but they're far from necessary in a 3-rune game, just swap your rings to resistance ones/quaff your resistance potions whenever you need to fight something with nasty elemental attacks. It works for me pretty nicely, and my ascensions so far have mostly been heavy armour spell-less characters.

The spellcasting penalty of GDA is HUGE, worse than CPA, far worse than Plate and Storm DA and much much much worse than FDA, IDA & PDA. The last three is your best bet if you're interested in spellcasting with some decent AC, not that you can't work toward casting some low level spells in GDA and CPA, but that'll take a ridiculous amount of investment in the relevant skills and you will still require wizardry bonuses to get better spells online.

What I want to say is; If you want to play without spells, GDA is imho fine (especially for Ogres and Trolls that have crappy EV anyway and can't wear CPA), but myself I find that I like to keep a nice balance between AC/EV in medium sized characters, which is why I recommend CPA, which doesn't kill your EV as much and requires less STR which allows for more points to be put in DEX for better EV returns with Dodging. Still you may want to consider using the -3 EVP dragon armours on spell-less characters, for the better EV they allow, which leads to more balanced defences.

EDIT: Fixed typos and... Damn, ninja'ed!

[BlackSheep]

I Agree... I was only considering I'm playing an ogre who don't care about dodging and spellcasting.

Unless you're playing a berserker with no intention of switching to another god, you should care about spells. If you are playing a berserker with no intention of switching to another god, you should definitely care about Dodging since what the hell else is there to care about once you max out M&F, Fighting and Armour?

It seems having 27 in str and armour skill offsets very well the spellcasting penalties (I just lost such an ogre in hell but his gold dragon armour didn't impeded so much his poor spellcasting aptitude).

27 str eliminates the extra strength penalty, but otherwise has no impact on spellcasting. 27 Armour skill makes GDA slightly better than plate armour with 0 skill in terms of spellcasting penalty. You still take a huge hit to your success chances that you could otherwise avoid using a lighter armor.

[Bearserker]

Short answer: you probably don't want a GDA. If you're with Kiku, you really very probably don't want GDA.

Genereally speaking you would be right, but actually, it's the opposite : I play an ogre who prepares for the extended.

Because with two previous ogres, I haven't found a GDA after having cleared ZOT, I consider switching from TSO to Kiku mainly for this purpose (and for torment resistance, curse resistance for the tomb, to get back usage of poison and curare, and "finally" to do a few necromancy during end-game).

EDIT :

27 str eliminates the extra strength penalty, but otherwise has no impact on spellcasting. 27 Armour skill makes GDA slightly better than plate armour with 0 skill in terms of spellcasting penalty. You still take a huge hit to your success chances that you could otherwise avoid using a lighter armor.

I didn't notice a big difference but I mainly use low level spells such as blink, swiftness, shroud, Repel Missiles, flight, etc.
With 27 in str and armour, how much does it impede spell success ?

As a side note, instead of maxing dodging, I spend xp in throwing because large rocks fill very well my lack of range weapons.

Basically I try to find the best way to make viable for the end-game/extended a big ogre with big muscles, big clubs of holy wrath/freezing, bigs rocks and a small blowgun (the fineness touch).

[Kate]

Kiku corpses don't leave hides anyway, so yeah.

[Davion Fuxa]

Figured a breakdown on the usefulness of the different armors that fall out of the usual kind.

In terms of Troll Armor, Animal Skin, and Robes for an Spriggan,Ogre/Troll - Here's some thoughts:

Animal Skin - Switch to a Robe Immediately if you start with Animal Skin, never consider wearing Animal Skin unless you find an extremely rare Artefact Animal Skin and have had difficulty finding a Dragon Armor that might match it.

Robe - Robes with decent Resistances on it are awesome, and I've seen some godly Artefact Robes as well. You may want to enchanting a Troll or Dragon Hide into Armor if spellcasting until much later depending on what type of robe you find, and you may want to skip Dragon Armor completely if you find an Artefact Robe that is really fitting well with your current character build.

Troll Hide/Armor - Increased Regeneration at a cost of increased Hunger, coupled with 4 AC and a low Evasion Penalty make the Troll Armor definitely worth using. On Ogres you may desire this over some early Dragon Armors you might pick up since Regeneration is extremely useful, though it should be treated as a simple step on the rung, minus any good Artefact Troll Armor's you might find in a vault.

In Terms of Dragon Armor for Spriggan,Ogre/Troll - Here's my other thoughts:

Steam Dragon Armor - No Evasion Penalty and AC makes this the best Armor that a Spriggan might want to wear if they want to maximize their Stealth advantage to the fullest. Steam Dragon's are awfully rare though so you might never see such an Armor or Dragon Hide appearing for use. Combined with the fact that resistance to Steam is of almost non-existent use, this is probably just a step on the rung to better armor if you use this.

Mottled Dragon Armor - Mottled Dragons are the first dragon common enough in the Dungeon that you should most likely be able to pick up a Dragon Hide for use. This is a good armor for spellcasters and stealth based characters to use due to the low Evasion penalty and 6 AC points you get. Sticky Flame resistance is moderately more useful then Steam resistance, most noticeably in the Realm of Zot. Hybrids and Melee type characters should push on to better armors though.

Swamp Dragon Armor - With a Minor Evasion Penalty and the useful Poison resistance, Swamp Dragon Armor is one of the End Game Armors that is 'good enough' to beat the game with for almost anything character build. For Spellcasters there might be trouble casting Level 8 or 9 spells but for all purposes it is probably the best armor for Spellcasters and Stealth characters to use; for Hybrid and Melee it can let you get some Dodging or moderate spell use in quite well. The Problem though is if you don't have the Swamp Branch then it is likely you won't run into a Swamp Dragon, and even then I've had runs where I've gone through the Swamp and found little sign of a Swamp Dragon or failed to get a corpse of hide.

Fire Dragon Armor - With a moderate Evasion Penalty, The Weakest Armor AC wise of the Fire, Ice, and Pearl Dragon Armors which all share the same Evasion Penalty; the Fire Dragon Armor is one of the most commonly sought after Dragon Armors in game. This is due to the Fire Resistance boost you pick up, and the frequent amount of Fire Damage you take towards to the end of the game. The Fire Dragon Armor though is one of two armors however that comes with a significant cost to wearing it however, in that it reduces your resistance to Cold. Still, all Hybrid and Heavily Melee Focused characters might be interested in playing with this armor.

Ice Dragon Armor - Ice Dragon Armor is the strict reverse of Fire Dragon Armor in that you pick up a big boost to Cold Resistance and a cost to Fire Resistant. Ice Dragon Armor is not as popular as Fire Dragon Armor, due to a lack of Cold Based Attacks in the End Game - which means you would have to stack up a lot of Fire Resistance on other items to make up for your Fire Resistance Penalty found on your Ice Dragon Armor. However that doesn't mean you won't find a lot of equipment with Fire Resistance to stack up and counter the penalty, and the resistances aside - Ice Dragon Armor is better then Fire Dragon Armor due to an extra point in AC. The type of characters that usually wear Ice Dragon Armor are usually those who want to me Omni-resistant.

Pearl Dragon Armor - The Holy Grail of Dragon Armor, there are sparse few reasons a character that finds either the Pearl Dragon Hide or Pearl Dragon Armor should wear anything else. This is by far the best Armor AC vs EV Penalty Ratio, and it comes with the very useful Negative Energy resistance to boot. Unlike Fire or Ice Dragon Armor, there are no resistance penalties associated with this armor, and of the few concerns that may occur due to penalties for spellcasting, it is likely that giving up level 8 or 9 spells is a okay trade off in relation to how much this armor ups your character survivability. There is but only two important things to note however in relation to Pearl Dragon Armor: First, finding a Pearl Dragon Hide or Pearl Dragon Armor in a Shop or on the Dungeon floor has a very low chance of occurring. Second, you usually won't find Pearl Dragons in the normal Dungeon unless in specific Vaults as they only spawn in Extended Gameplay; also if you do find a Pearl Dragon Armor in the Main Dungeon then the possibility of a YASD for your character is a very distinct possibility. Koodoo's to you if you get a Pearl Dragon Armor however!

Storm Dragon Armor - I personally think this is probably the worst of the worst when it comes to Dragon Armor. Storm Dragon Armor provides resistance to Electricity while giving you a very modest AC, but at a cost of a substantial Evasion Penalty. I'm not sure what type of character would want to wear such Armor but it would likely only be a Melee who wants to have access to very low level spells and nothing more. Most likely the only reason you would wear this is if you plan on wearing Golden Dragon Armor but come across a Storm Dragon Armor long before you'll see any Golden Dragons; which isn't a very common occurrence.

Golden Dragon Armor - The Shiny Resistances and High AC may make this armor seem like a treat for a pure Melee character, but the only real reasons to use Golden Dragon Armor is if you have stacks of Enchant Armor to burn and lack sources of Resistances from the rest of the gear you have found. The Massive Evasion Penalty on Golden Armor means that you will be almost forgoing the ability to Dodge Attacks, and there are usually few scenarios that your character may encounter that having Omni-resistance will produce a net benefit.

[pratamawirya]

and it comes with the very useful Negative Energy resistance

No it's not very useful, as far as I know.

[njvack]

rN is better than nothing, but yeah, I'd take rF or rC or rPois or rElec over rN through most of the game. Draining attacks will very seldom kill you, and being drained is annoying but really it's mainly psychological.

If you chose Storm Armour (which you might do as a large species, especially with something like Ash's skill boosts) you would very likely not get to GDA, because you would need ungodly numbers of enchant scrolls. It's actually good, except that you can probably find plate with a better resist about a million times earlier. Oftentimes, you can even find +2 plate with a good resist. And there go your enchant scrolls.

[ebarrett]

and it comes with the very useful Negative Energy resistance

No it's not very useful, as far as I know.

wow, someone actually reads his essays, this is sort of worrying

[Davion Fuxa]

I've found that in relation to Resistances on Armor that Resistance to Fire, Cold, Poison, and Electricity can be made up with by other means. Potions of Resistance can bump up everything but Negative Energy temporarly, you can find Shields of Resistance that bump up both Fire and Ice, Rings of Ice/Fire and Staff of Fire/Cold might be equipped to protect yourself and boost spells, and then you may find some nice Artefacts as well.

On the side of Negative Energy Resistance however, there isn't a whole lot of good gear that you might want to keep in your inventory or to equip to protect yourself (like the Amulet of Warding is usually playing second fiddle to something else); it simply is rare like the Pearl Dragon Armor or it doesn't stack up to equivalents like the Staff of Death - or it doesn't have an equivalent in the case of Ring of Ice/Fire.

This isn't to say I suggest ignoring the other Resistances either - I fully support getting rF++ or rF+++ by any means for the Realm of Zot; however I've found that running around with a Pearl Dragon Armor has never really hampered by ability to protect myself from the Elemental Attack of the day with proper switching of Jewelry and Resistances from my other gear.

[BlackSheep]

Your reasoning seems to apply equal weight to the resistances. Other considerations like the frequency players encounter a damage type and the potential magnitude of damage of that type are relevant.

[Mankeli]

rN is useful against torment. There isn't torment in a traditional 3-rune game (please don't say curse skulls). rN is pretty useless against not-torment (I use it with low EV melee chars against shadow dragons and probably against ancient liches which are almost nonexistent before zot:5).

[Tiber]

Technically the more serious mummy death curses sometimes torment you. Still easily avoidable though. A note I would add to pearl dragon armor is that it can't be cursed, for anyone who might be worshiping Ashenzari.

[njvack]

Hm. I wonder if Ash should disapprove of pearl armour, then.

[BlackSheep]

A note I would add to pearl dragon armor is that it can't be cursed, for anyone who might be worshiping Ashenzari.

This is outdated. Since 0.10 they can be cursed.

[Davion Fuxa]

Your reasoning seems to apply equal weight to the resistances. Other considerations like the frequency players encounter a damage type and the potential magnitude of damage of that type are relevant.

It isn't that I'm ignoring the value of each Resistance due to frequency of Negative Energy being used against the character - I'm just looking at both ends of the spectrum where finding decent equipment with Resistance to Negative Energy is just as infrequent.

[Psieye]

Your reasoning seems to apply equal weight to the resistances. Other considerations like the frequency players encounter a damage type and the potential magnitude of damage of that type are relevant.

It isn't that I'm ignoring the value of each Resistance due to frequency of Negative Energy being used against the character - I'm just looking at both ends of the spectrum where finding decent equipment with Resistance to Negative Energy is just as infrequent.

He was more referring to your treatment of rC and rElec.

[XuaXua]

Koodoo's to you if you get a Pearl Dragon Armor however!

Kudos.