Too many daggers to choose from...

[danr]

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12-a0-1397-g08371cf (tiles) character file.

Hedbut the Fetichist (Kobold Berserker)            Turns: 33268, Time: 02:19:12

HP  81/94        AC 15     Str 17      XL: 15   Next: 43%
MP  32/32        EV 37     Int  5      God: Trog [*****.]
Gold 1851        SH 23     Dex 21      Spells:  0 memorised, 14 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +   a - +0,+4 dagger of Ragnarok {drain, +Blink}
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   Q - +1 orc robe {rF+}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   j - +0 shield
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   W - +1 helmet {SInv}
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   G - +3 cloak of Flash {+Fly EV+4}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   t - +0 pair of gloves
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   O - +0 pair of boots
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   q - amulet "Acupn" {Faith +Rage}
Saprovore : + + .   Flight     : .   P - +5 ring of evasion
                                     k - +4 ring of protection

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extraordinarily stealthy
A: disease resistance, carnivore 3, saprovore 2, slow healing 1
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Blink, Evoke Berserk Rage, Evoke Flight


You are on level 3 of the Orcish Mines.
You worship Trog.
Trog is exalted by your worship.
You are very full.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 21 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Ice Cave.

You have collected 2686 gold pieces.
You have spent 855 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - the +0,+4 dagger of Ragnarok (weapon) {drain, +Blink}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)   
   
   A truly terrible weapon, it drains the life of those it strikes.
   
   It lets you blink.
 b - a +8,+7 elven short sword of flaming
 d - a +2,+1 orcish dagger of speed
 e - a +0,+2 orcish dagger of venom
 p - a +1,+1 orcish dagger of protection
 v - a +0,+2 dwarven sabre of freezing {god gift}
 C - a +4,+4 vampiric dagger
 D - a +3,+4 anti-magic dagger {god gift}
 M - a +1,+4 short sword of electrocution {god gift}
 Y - an uncursed sling of evasion
Missiles
 i - 20 silver darts
 y - 21 steel darts (quivered)
 E - 5 exploding darts
Armour
 j - a +0 shield (worn)
 m - a +2 orcish robe of fire resistance
 s - a +0 orcish robe of magic resistance
 t - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 G - the +3 cloak of Flash (worn) {+Fly EV+4}
   (You found it in a labyrinth)   
   
   It affects your evasion (+4).
   It lets you fly.
 O - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
 Q - a +1 orcish robe of fire resistance (worn)
 W - a +1 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 X - a +0 helmet of intelligence
Magical devices
 n - a wand of enslavement (9)
 w - a wand of digging
 F - a wand of lightning (4)
 H - a wand of fire (9)
 N - a jewelled gold wand
 T - a wand of paralysis (1)
Comestibles
 c - 2 meat rations
Scrolls
 g - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 h - a scroll of enchant weapon II
 r - a scroll of fear
 z - 4 scrolls of recharging
 A - 2 scrolls of identify
 K - a scroll of fog
 L - a scroll of unholy creation
 U - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 V - a scroll of vulnerability
Jewellery
 f - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 k - a +4 ring of protection (left hand)
 q - the amulet "Acupn" (around neck) {Faith +Rage}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [amulet of faith]
   It lets you go berserk.
 u - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 x - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
 I - an uncursed ring of invisibility
 J - an uncursed ring of teleport control
 P - a +5 ring of evasion (right hand)
Potions
 l - a potion of restore abilities
 o - 5 potions of curing
 S - a potion of invisibility
Miscellaneous
 B - a bottled efreet


   Skills:
 * Level 12.7 Fighting
 - Level 11.0 Short Blades
 - Level 1.5 Armour
 + Level 15.0 Dodging
 - Level 15.4 Stealth
 - Level 10.0 Stabbing
 - Level 6.6 Shields
 - Level 16.6 Evocations


This is why I love this game - it'll throw you equipment that takes you in a totally new direction. I was intending to just do a straight up berserker, but then I find in the first few levels a ring of invisibility, a ring of teleport control, and a randart dagger of draining with +Blink!

The only trouble is I don't always want to use draining, and sometimes I want to use other things. I've also found short blades, mostly daggers, that are vampiric, electrocution, a +7 short sword of flaming (off Duvessa), anti-magic, protection, and speed, venom...

I almost feel like I have too many options, but I'm not sure what to ditch?
When I'm invisi-stabbing, I'm guessing the speed dagger is best. Outside of that, the randart dagger?

The amulet I'm wearing because I use-ID'd it, but it has been good for Brothers In Arms.

[Davion Fuxa]

That's a really high enchantment on the Elven Short Sword of Flaming, and it is probably your best weapon since Stealth is your key defense stat here. The Short Sword of Electrocution does more damage but you'll want to safe it for when 'The Best Defense is a Good Offense' moments come up. The Dagger of Ragnarok is a nice for Blink but not really worth much as a weapon. Out of the rest of the weapons, only the Anti-Magic Dagger really catches my eye.

I can't say I see any reason you should carry around the following daggers:

e - a +0,+2 orcish dagger of venom
p - a +1,+1 orcish dagger of protection
v - a +0,+2 dwarven sabre of freezing {god gift}
C - a +4,+4 vampiric dagger

These weapons seem outclassed by the above four weaponry listed above. Can't say I'm sure about the Orcish Dagger of Speed on what I would call for it but I would assume it wouldn't be that much better then the Elven Short Sword of Flaming, so you would have to decide if it is worth any extra damage it is dealing yourself - if it does deal more.

[njvack]

Antimagic is not good on daggers. It makes monsters miscast based on the amount of damage you do with it in a hit. I'm not sure if stabs count towards that (I'm betting not) but if you're daggerstabbing dudes you don't care if they can cast afterwards because they're already dead.

[njvack]

(Watch while my analysis of antimagic daggers is completely wrong.)

[brickroad]

The speed dagger is the best for invisibility stabbing, at least with your current skills. The rest are useless except for the +Blink.

Just curious, why is the speed dagger the best for stabbing? Also, is the damage component of an enchantment significant when considering a dagger for stab damage?

[BlackSheep]

More speed = more stabs

[Davion Fuxa]

The speed dagger is the best for invisibility stabbing, at least with your current skills. The rest are useless except for the +Blink.

Just curious, why is the speed dagger the best for stabbing? Also, is the damage component of an enchantment significant when considering a dagger for stab damage?

A Dagger of Speed has a low delay so you can attack more often with it - and with Tier 2 or 3 Stab you don't get the Stabbing Bonus 100% all the time so more attacks mean you give more chances that a Stabbing Effect with Proc. That said, the amount of Stabbing Damage you do is based on your Damage done on the regular attack and what your Stabbing with.

I personally can't say though as to what would do the most damage however as much like njvack I don't know what factors into the damage when it comes to Brands; or if there is special cases for each specific Brand and the Stabbing Bonus.

[Baldu]

Hi, can i ask a little favor? Would you mind doing a stab with vampiric and report if it applies to the big stab damage? I never tried it and expect not but would be nice to know.

As for speed being better, i believe that like mentioned in case of a confusion stab attempts you'll get more tries before the confusion ends and in the case of a room full of stab targets lower time spent on each target means more chance of successfully stabbing all targets before they wake up. But for a room with a single target i think the draining dagger would do very slightly more damage because of the brand but even then if i remember the stab equation right the place where the brand is applied ends up not contributing much for final damage so for convenience sake just keeping the speed dagger is what i'd probably do.

As a side note, im pretty sure that successful stabs with elec dagger dont produce the elec noise, i seem to remember trying it a while ago and being pleasantly surprised with the results. Would be worth to check it out if you get one and also keep it for vulnerable monsters.

[Psieye]

Hi, can i ask a little favor? Would you mind doing a stab with vampiric and report if it applies to the big stab damage? I never tried it and expect not but would be nice to know.

As a side note, im pretty sure that successful stabs with elec dagger dont produce the elec noise, i seem to remember trying it a while ago and being pleasantly surprised with the results. Would be worth to check it out if you get one and also keep it for vulnerable monsters.

Vampiric stabs do give massive HP heals. It becomes quite ridiculous on a Vp stabber who can wield it at will.

Elec makes no noise on proc normally, regardless of stab or not. It DOES make noise if it procs on a target that's standing in water. Doesn't make sense no, but that's how it works right now.

[danr]

That's what I was thinking with the vampiric dagger too but sadly I never saw any massive heals from it, I wonder if this used to be the case but has been fixed?

I have actually found the dagger of draining very effective, I believe draining takes quite a few HP, doesn't it? And the XP loss has been negligible, perhaps because as a KoBe I don't have too many skills to invest in and the ones I have have good aptitudes.

My thought on the dagger of protection is that it significantly raises my rather pathetic AC, and it might be good when I'm suddenly in deep doodoo and just need to cover my ass while I run away.

The dagger of venom and sabre of freezing are just kind of trash I picked up.

Thanks for the reminder about minimum delay, minmay.

[danr]

Oh well, died in Snake Pits. Apparently Blink is not a guaranteed escape from constriction...

[Psieye]

Yah, blink counts as 2 escape attempts.

[njvack]

Because weapon damage rules (skills, stats, base damage/enchantment, brand mechanics, stabbing) are really complex and not particularly intuitive -- you just have to Know A Bunch Of Rules (which mostly are exposed only via source, bots, or experts) and think about how they interact. And trying to divine it by seeing how quickly things die is hard, because you're unlikely to have a situation that lets you do anything remotely like a controlled experiment.

So, people keep asking because it's really hard to know the answer.

[BlackSheep]

Presumably they're looking for help working out why a particular weapon does more damage.

[danr]

The speed dagger is the best for invisibility stabbing, at least with your current skills. The rest are useless except for the +Blink.

Just curious, why is the speed dagger the best for stabbing? Also, is the damage component of an enchantment significant when considering a dagger for stab damage?

I assume this is the question being referred to.

One thing to note is that brickroad currently has a total of 4 posts.

I read his question as asking why the speed dagger does the most damage, e.g. despite it having low bonuses, how does that apply to stabbing, etc. I think he just wanted to understand more about how stabbing damage is calculated.

Blacksheep and Davion Fuxa both gave good answers. No one is questioning your insight, he just wanted to understand the logic behind it better.