troll skills

[nordetsa]

Rolled a dozen of TrCk and still having no luck. My character gets noticeably weaker as they approach level 12 or so. Because of the race's terrible aptitude, here's how I train my skills: first train UC around 10~12, then train fighting 10 to get hp. My idea is because trolls wear robes training armor isn't that good, and because troll is a large species EV isn't that good either. So I go for fighting to get extra hp.

After this I train throwing to 3~5 because I want to use those heavy rocks lying around somewhere.

And then this is where my character usually die, around lv 12~13. Am I doing something wrong? Or is it just I'm charging towards strong enemy when I shouldn't? Troll aptitudes makes me wonder what skill should I train.

[Davion Fuxa]

Even though Trolls have poor skills for Armour and Dodging, you'll eventually want to think about training them up - though that will happen later. Shields are potentially worth picking up if you luck into an early one that isn't a Buckler or Large Shield.

It sounds like you have a decent strategy, but something manages to eventually step up that kills you. What have been the cause of you deaths mostly - are you getting swarmed by Orcs, Yaks, or Centaurs; crushed under the Club of a Hill Giant or Ogre; or maybe something Out of Depth Pops up and simply outright murders you?

[nordetsa]

I can take out hill giant or ogre pretty easily by the time I meet them. I think the main issue is, surprisingly, poison. I keep come across swarm of bees in 9~10th floor. They're so fast and come in numbers so I have to fight them unless I get attacked to death. As a result I get poisoned and have to use consumables.

Last time I died to black mamba because it poisoned me quite heavily.

But generally, I get hit really hard. With terrible AC and EV I don't know how to proceed.

[XuaXua]

For me, it's the centaurs and yaktaurs (ranged attackers) who take down my Trolls.

[Davion Fuxa]

Are you just heading straight down the Main Dungeon or are you looking into the Lair or Orcish Mines at all - the Orcish Mines in particular if you have no trouble with Ogres or Hill Giants?
Are you picking up Blowguns or Wands on your way through the first 10 or so levels that might be able to use those items to even things out for you?

[nordetsa]

I pick up every wands I could find, and I use it freely (kill jellies, polymorph Sigmud, etc.) I began to appreciate scroll of immolation to use as an aoe dmg.

And I don't think going to orcish mine in lv 12 works. I can barely take out one orc warrior, and I would probably have really hard time fighting against orc knights.

Also, when should I start train armor and dodging then?

[tasonir]

While there are plenty of ways to build trolls other than what I have done, I've won 3 of them and here's the links to their morgue files:

http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/Ta ... 064707.txt

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 030206.txt

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 073716.txt

Essentially you will be going heavily into armor because you eventually pick up fire dragon armor. But don't train armor until you have a dragon armor, other skills are better while wearing robes. Feel free to also use ice dragon, pearl, or golden dragon armors. The later assumes you aren't casting as much, but yeah. I happened to use fire dragon all three times but it's not the only choice. Use a shield, and until you get a dragon armor be very careful around midgame. Of course this is crawl and you should just be careful always.

[crate]

The large size modifier is actually not as important as you might think. The real reason trolls have bad ev is they have crappy dex. I don't like FDA or heavier things on trolls--MDA plus spells is the way to go imo. Your AC and EV are going to be mediocre throughout the game (this is true with any armour, not just MDA) but that's fine since you're a troll.

This is probably my most "standard" troll:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/crate ... 012211.txt

Another reasonably standard one; the stats listed are a bit of a lie (check the @ line) but I did have ~30 EV without agility:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/crate ... 062749.txt

My third non-chei non-jiyva troll:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/crate ... 182032.txt

[Turgon]

Trolls are a challenging race, I lost very many of them...

For me, it's the centaurs and yaktaurs (ranged attackers) who take down my Trolls.

Yes, that's a big problem. When you don't wear dragon armour your low AC and EV will cause trouble when you face shooters.

here's how I train my skills: first train UC around 10~12, then train fighting 10 to get hp.

UC is different from weapon skills: it starts weaker but gets strong when you're at max. So I'd lay much more emphasis on UC, fighting skill is less important.

After this I train throwing to 3~5 because I want to use those heavy rocks lying around somewhere.

Being able to throw large rocks is one of the special features of trolls, and their throwing skill is quite good. Damage of rocks is governed by Str, but accuracy depends on throwing skill afaik. So I usually train it up to 7 when I worship Oka or Trog. (>= 8 leads to often useless throwing gifts from both of these gods.)

I keep come across swarm of bees in 9~10th floor. They're so fast and come in numbers so I have to fight them unless I get attacked to death.

With no means of defense you'd better avoid bees. As they usually come in swarms run away when you see one.

If you want to kill them consider clouds: mephitic cloud, evaporate. These spells are easy to learn when you worship Ash.

With terrible AC and EV I don't know how to proceed.

Although SH is less useful than AC or EV a shield will provide at least some protection. You will lose some offense but imo it's worth thinking about it. Spiny frogs are less dangerous when you wield a shield.

I can barely take out one orc warrior

Orc warriors shouldn't be a problem when your UC is high enough.

Essentially you will be going heavily into armor because you eventually pick up fire dragon armor. But don't train armor until you have a dragon armor, other skills are better while wearing robes. Feel free to also use ice dragon, pearl, or golden dragon armors.

This is alright if you go for a non-casting troll, this usually means that you'll want to increase your Dex. But keep in mind that heavy armour makes your UC less effective.

I don't like FDA or heavier things on trolls--MDA plus spells is the way to go imo.

I personally prefer this way too. Fire DA has a -3 penalty which means you have to spend much more XP into your magic schools. So if you go for a casting troll mottled DA is fine. A swamp DA with a -2 penalty is nice too - if you're lucky to butcher a hide from a swamp dragon. In this case you'll usually want to increase your Int.

*******

And after all, if you manage to survive longer than in your last games, you have to think about how to handle yaktaurs etc. Imo this is the main challenge in a troll's game as trolls are strong in the early game as well as in the extended.

[crate]

Well the spellcasting penalty for swamp dragon armour is between six and infinity times larger than the spellcasting penalty for mottled dragon armour, depending on your armour skill level, whereas the spellcasting penalty for FDA is less than twice that of swamp dragon armour, so if you're going to wear something heavier than mda you might as well get a useful resistance and more AC out of it imo.

[Turgon]

Well the spellcasting penalty for swamp dragon armour is between six and infinity times larger than the spellcasting penalty for mottled dragon armour

!

I didn't expect that, I always felt fine with a troll in swamp DA. Another day, another surprise...

[Psieye]

It's (1-0.8) vs (2-0.8), assuming no shields. 0.2 gets shrunk down further towards 0 and therefore, approaches infinity when compared with other numbers.

[cerebovssquire]

IMO UC 12 -> 10 Fighting is not a good progression. Something like UC 12 -> 5 Fighting -> UC 15 or even UC 15 -> 10 Fighting (what I normally do) is easier in my experience with trolls. Fighting is a great skill, but the general rule that weapon skill is more important early on can be transferred to UC. Your UC skill doesn't reduce delay as quickly as weapon skills do, but it plays a greater role in the damage of each hit because it isn't a damage multiplier, it actually defines your base damage.

Swamp dragon armour isn't actually bad when you look at it alone, the case is more like "MDA is the best armour in the game for many characters if you have enough ?ea", so why would you want to use it. It was buffed from 5 to 6 base AC some while ago. It felt like a good armour to me before, especially to Ozocubu's Armour users who can't wear swamp DA (my first ogre win!), not sure if the buff was actually necessary.