Been playing for a year, still haven't cleared a branch!

[Velocijacktor]

So I've been playing Crawl for about a year or so now. I started with Linley's, and I quickly moved on to DCSS. I believe I've been playing since 0.9's fresh release.

I have been a religious follower of the wiki and have followed the updates each time they happen. I use guides all the time, and when something happens that I don't understand, I look it up.

I even watch games all the time on WebTiles. I've seen three or four people complete ascensions.

The most success I've ever had with a character was a DDNe of Makhleb. The only reason I got this far, however, was due to finding a whip of distortion on D: 2.

The most success I've been having as of late is coming with KoBe of Trog. I've made it to level 13+ a few times already, and I've got the gist of the character down.

However, I'm having issues with basic guidelines. What are some hard, fast rules? Such as: How do I design a character? How many skills should I have leveled in the end? How many should I have on at one time? How many should I focus? Should I ever have both Armour and Dodging on? What stats should I go for with what characters? How much strength is needed for a melee fighter? I just want some basic rules that encompass any class design.

I also can't play casters, at all. I just can't.I have issues getting past infancy, and I generally die absurdly quickly on them. I can't even play hybrids. I've only had small success with DDNe, KoBe, and MiFi. Other than that I just can't do it!

Obviously, I love Crawl, and I want to keep playing it. But losing is only so much fun. Any help would be awesome. Thanks for your time.

[nordetsa]

How do I design a character?

That depends on what you want your character to be. Looks like you have somewhat clear design: you said you can't play mage. You were most succesful with KoBe-why not try berserker as youf first win, and based on that experience, expand from there? (which is what I'm doing right now: I first got my 3-rune win as a Minotaur fighter, than got 15 rune as MiFi, and now trying other race/class combination which I previously thought were just too difficult to play).

How many skills should I have leveled in the end? How many should I have on at one time? How many should I focus? Should I ever have both Armour and Dodging on?

As regard to skill, I think it's good to focus on one skill at a time. As a melee fighter, you'd want your weapon skill get to minimum delay asap. It's a good defense if you can kill enemies faster-you take less damage. Training both armor and dodge at the same time is bad IMO, because generally the one offsets the other. Heavy armor gives you much AC, but lowers EV, and vise versa with light armor. If you play berserker, you'd focus on 1) weapon 2) armour 3) fighting, because you want to melee things while bearing the dmg coming from monsters.

[Velocijacktor]

Well what I usually do with the KoBe is train Fighting, Stealth,and Shields and focus Short Blades and Dodging. I don't use Armour because the guide doesn't call for it. It said on a race like Kobold it's best to stick with robes/animal skins and use a buckler.

[nordetsa]

Actually I never played KoBe before. Stealthy characters I find it kinda complicated for me to manage. Not much to say about that race/class.

Anyway, the general rule for all race/class I think would be 'you don't have to kill everything you see.' See a grinder at D:3? Avoid that area. Another rule would be to position yourself well. See a centaur? Try to lure him into a corner so you don't have to get shafted. You let the monster come to you.

But where do you die usually? Looks like you seem to know the basic stuff if you can get to level 13.

[Velocijacktor]

Generally I pass the Orcish Mines and the Lair.

[Davion Fuxa]

Basic Guidelines:

Focus on a core skill for your character - this would be like your weapon skill or your spell school your focusing on for dealing with things, etc. After that pick a defense skill - Stealth, Shields, Dodging, Armor would fit here - in some cases though it may well be that your core skill IS your defense skill, which applies to Wizards, Conjurers, Enchanters, Venom Mages, and Artificers. Finally, consider what assisting skills or spell schools you might want if they are applicable to your playstyle - Fighting, Stabbing, Charms, Hexes, Translocations, Transmutations, and Elemental Magics of Air, Earth, Fire, Ice, and Poison.

Generally if I follow the above I tend to do well since I'm not throwing experience everywhere and anywhere, though it is key to point out that your Core Skill should get higher focus, then your defensive skill pick up focus when your done getting your Core Skill to a satisfactory level, with assisting skills being added only where it compliments your characters playstyle (like you focus on Conjurations with a Conjurer, but you pick up some Air Magic and Poison Magic to make Mephitic Cloud cast more successfully)

In terms of Stats you should get enough Strength to equip whatever armor you want to wear, and then pick up either Intelligence or Dexterity. Commonly people would mention that you should get Intelligence only if you aren't worshiping Trog, else get Dexterity - though I think that you can get Dexterity if you feel the Added Evasion chance is helpful to you. The only really hard and fast rule though that I would give would be to get ALL stats to a bare minimum of 8 Strength, 8 Intelligence, and 8 Dexterity to prevent stat death from Death Curses.

Some Player Tailored Tips:

Maybe try mixing it up a little - try some different species as a Berserker or maybe look into Trying a Fighter and checking out some of the other Gods. Consider possibly mixing up the skill set too - Kobolds are great with Short Blades yes but Mace & Flail can be quite nice too for them. If you move away from Berserker, you might try Throwing, Slings, or Crossbows and try playing a Hunter or Assassin - or maybe do that while being a Berserker and just switch to a Melee weapon when you need to Berserk.

Try to learn by playing, it sounds like your trying to learn too much from other people and not enough from what your doing yourself. Sometimes no one can teach you what you have to do, you have to figure out what you have to do. You might figure out what your doing wrong by thinking about what led you to dying in the first place.

You might consider running into Orcish Mines or Lair when you get to Dungeon:10 - if it appears too hard (Maybe a pack of Blink Frogs or a Hydra spawned on Lair:1, or a Orc Sorcerer is running around in Orcish Mines:2) then just leave for a bit and come back when you pick up some tools or levels to continue. Pushing farther into the Main Dungeon is okay but its very possible you'll run into something excruciatingly difficult quickly.

[Velocijacktor]

Thanks for the tips. I was told to generally stay within four or five skills, and only focus on one or two. For example, I leave Fighting, Dodging, Stealth, Short Blades and Shields on. There's not really a reason to keep Shields on past 7, and it's more beneficial to stop at 14 for Short Blades (Sabre) and focus on other things. I focus Short Blades and Dodging while I'm leveling.

[Psieye]

I have been a religious follower of the wiki

The wiki is known to be unreliable for crawl, unlike the case for most other games. Use the knowledge bots instead, they are reliable. Like for example:

I don't use Armour because the guide doesn't call for it. It said on a race like Kobold it's best to stick with robes/animal skins and use a buckler.

Steam dragon armour and mottled dragon armour are worth learning Armour for - but only after you actually find them. A buckler would basically be forcing you down the path of a stealth stabber which, for a Be, would mean you'd need a blowgun and needles of sleep/paralysis. On a Ko, I'd much rather have a crossbow and a lajatang than a buckler.


Anyway, here's some tailored advice for you:

Play nothing but MiBe until you win. 18 Str is enough (plate mail), 24 if you find crystal plate (extremely rare) and 27 for gold dragon armour (again, extremely rare and will probably show up too late to matter for 3-rune wins). It's up to you whether you take swords, axes, maces or polearms but don't use shields until you've won at least once. Your first priority is to get a big 2h weapon (great sword, battleaxe, great mace, glaive) with enough skill to bring it down to min delay. I will assume you know about min delay, ask if you don't. Along the way you should grab some fighting and armour skills. Once your fighting/weapon/armour skills are in good shape (12/20/12 sounds about right), you can think about grabbing a couple other skills.

Dodging to 10 is worth it if you've been pumping Dex on level ups and you've found +Dex artifacts. A longbow or crossbow is also useful for extra utility - once you hit Lv 8 in your missile skill Trog will give you ammo gifts. Should you choose to take up a missile skill, get it to about 14. When Trog gets you an ultimate 2h weapon (triple sword, executioner axe, halberd - you can't wield the ultimate mace unless you're ogre/troll), you should bring up weapon skill to 26.

Towards the end (like, around D:20) you should have an idea of what your endgame weapon and body armour will be: save up your enchant weapon/armour scrolls for this moment and pump your chosen equipment up when you decide to settle on it. Rule of thumb: base type is more important than pretty brands on inferior base types. That means a vampiric falchion is inferior to an unbranded triple sword.

Oh and regarding berserk - rely on it a lot in the earlygame if you want, but later on use it sparsely. At or after Lair, if you feel the need to berserk, use BiA instead so you can keep your escape options open while a bro (or several!) does the berserking for you.

[crate]

Maces KoBe with a buckler is good. Or longblades kobe with a buckler. Or shortblades kobe, you don't have to stab things for this to be decent, though you will be pressing tab an awful lot.

edit: Probably if you are dying it is because you are handling engagements incorrectly in some way. Every time you die, figure out how you could have survived the situation that killed you, and next game put whatever you learned to use. For instance, if you die to an orc pack on d:3 because you charged at it, then obviously you don't do that. Or if you get spotted by an orc and then he drags his buddies to you, figure out how to get just the single orc that saw you to chase (this will involve lots of moving).

[Styro]

There is a lot of really great advice here already, but I will chime in a bit to reinforce what has been said and to add a couple extra thoughts.

If you are interested in playing a fighter-type, my suggestion is to stick with a Minotaur or Hill Orc until you win. Both have really good fighter aptitudes and lots of health which will give you some wiggle room in making bad decisions. If you make a bad decision with a Kobold you will be dead.

I tend to not play Berserkers because I use spells. If your deaths tend to be caused by the slowness after berserking you may try to play without berserking (which is probably safer - just use brothers in arms more) or start as a Gladiator and go with Okawaru or TSO. Oka will gift you armour in addition to weapons and has two good abilities. TSO gives you the halo which makes enemies easier to hit and acts as See Inv and gives you angels and some other cool stuff. If you go Oka and find an early-ish amulet of faith it is worth putting on if you have nothing better (like clarity). That will speed up your armour and weapon gifts.

Don't use a shield. They are OK in terms of defense against some things, but it means another skill that you have to spend XP on and it limits you to weaker weapons. Upgrade your armour whenever you find a stronger one. For example, put on the first chainmail you see. Upgrade to platemail whenever you find one. If you find an armour with a good resist (like rPois) that is almost as good as what you have then you can consider downgrading in order to get the resist.

Turn off all your skills except your primary weapon. I tend to pick trident because of the reaching ability which means one free attack while your enemy approaches.

Once you get to or near min delay on attack, turn on fighting. Once weapon is at min delay, you can turn it off and focus fighting. At this point you can also turn on Armour (not focused).

If at any point you find a really nice ranged weapon (crossbow, bow/longbow, or sling) you can start using it to soften up enemies if you want. If you do not want ammo gifts then keep your skill below 8.

Keep going in the dungeon, skipping fights that are difficult, until D13 (or until you run into an Unseen Horror if you do not yest have See Inv). Then clear all but the last level of Lair. At this point, I usually put 2 points in Traps and then turn it off again. Then try to clear all but the last level of Orc. At this point you can try to clear the final levels of the Lair and then Orc. Depending on your equipment and which endings you get this could either be easy or very hard. Take it slow. If they are too difficult then just come back later.

You should then continue on in the dungeon, again skipping things that are too dangerous, until things get generally difficult. For me this is usually around D20-25. I will then start going back and forth between the Lair branches, Vaults, and Main Dungeon depending on their difficulty.

The main thing, as others have pointed out, is to make sure you are fighting in corridors or at choke-points whenever possible, and luring ranged attackers around corners. Don't be afraid to use potions and wands before fights to buff yourself and weaken enemies. Throw javalins/darts/nets/rocks at approaching enemies to soften them up.

For you stat points, I would raise Int to 8 and then pump all the remaining points into Dex. You probably have enough Str to wear whatever armour you find and you will likely be best off with some Red Dragon Armour for the end game unless you find or are gifted a nice randart.

[Velocijacktor]

So you're saying just don't use the wiki at all? Hm. I guess I'll start using the Knowledge Bots instead.

I'll also try to win as a MiBe first. I suppose the two-handed weapon thing makes the most sense. I think I read somewhere that the shield classes require more skill.

And on the situational dying: I understand the basic things to do. How to kite and how to lure single targets. I understand basic positioning. I think my problem is not being able to properly gauge power, and I dive in headfirst.

[Davion Fuxa]

So you're saying just don't use the wiki at all? Hm. I guess I'll start using the Knowledge Bots instead.

I'll also try to win as a MiBe first. I suppose the two-handed weapon thing makes the most sense. I think I read somewhere that the shield classes require more skill.

And on the situational dying: I understand the basic things to do. How to kite and how to lure single targets. I understand basic positioning. I think my problem is not being able to properly gauge power, and I dive in headfirst.

The CrawlWiki isn't necessarily bad, I use it myself for getting information - it is just that I take in along with information I gather from the Forums and playing the game and attempt to test out the knowledge first in controlled circumstances (like Draw-IDing a Deck of Cards with a rat next to you). You should really only use it to give you an idea on how you might approach gameplay, but keep in mind that other methods of play might be possible.

In regards to Shields, they require quite a few things: Management of a Weapon Skill and a Shield Skill, A different Mindset for playing a character, and a huge Investment Cost to really make them work right. Most people will run around with Bucklers because they are fairly simple experience investment on most characters; using Shields or Large Shields though require a lot more planning and experience investment.

[zedzed]

Some great advice here. I'd add to that:

Always have an escape plan (scroll/wand of teleport, potion of speed), and execute it when you get near or below 50% health.

For me, Potions of health are the last, last resort (usually). You drink it, it swings again and hits, you're gained nothing but moved on a turn. If you're in a position where you need the mob to miss while you do something, then you've made a mistake somewhere before that

Zed

[Psieye]

For me, Potions of health are the last, last resort (usually). You drink it, it swings again and hits, you're gained nothing but moved on a turn. If you're in a position where you need the mob to miss while you do something, then you've made a mistake somewhere before that

Exception: something else is going on while you're stalling for time. Be that a teleport kicking in, your army kicking ass for you or a tornado throwing puny monsters about.

[Velocijacktor]

Thanks a lot for the tips.

Keeping the primary weapon on as the only skill is really worth it as a fighter type? I thought using more skills would be worthwhile. I'll try a two-handed build for my next run, probably as a MiFi.

As a fighter, I had always had fighting, primary weapon, and armour on. I generally focused my primary weapon, as well.

[BlackSheep]

The offensive gains you get from advancing your weapon skill until you've reached minimum delay far outstrip the defensive gains you get from Armour/Dodging early on. Fighting gives you improved accuracy and extra HP, but the extra HP is based on your character level, so the benefits are much better later in the game.

Basically, in the early game your best defense is a good offense, and your best offense comes from weapon skill on a melee dude.

[Psieye]

Keeping the primary weapon on as the only skill is really worth it as a fighter type?

It changes depending on what part of the game you're at. Earlygame, 100% of all your EXP should be going into your weapon until it hits min delay (so you can pick up an upgrade to base type without waiting). Lategame, you most certainly want other skills to complement your weapon skill. Midgame? That's when things get interesting with choices.

[BountyHunterSAx]

You know what I'd love to do? I'd love to have you get on chat + webitles, and then actually watch/coach you through the game as an MiBe, all the way up to your first branch completion (even if it's just clearing out the Lair) or preferrably up to a rune.

The way I see it, the MiBe class has become *very* easy for me to play, and if you've been playing as long as you have, I am *certain* you can easily pull it off with just a little bit of guidance+direction. And then, once you've done it, you'll see just how very easy it is to do it again and again and again.




-AHMAD

[Velocijacktor]

That would be awesome. Just let me know when you're free.

[Zicher]

Given your love for KoBe, you may try to go a bit more extreme and try a short blade SpBe. Focus SBl and Dodging, turn off everything else until SBl=14 (min delay for a sabre). If you survive until that point, unfocus (or turn off) SBl, turn on Stealth, Stabbing, Fighting and Traps and try a more stealthy approach. Keep Dodging focused for even more EV. Always raise Dexterity on XL3 and on - and you end up with 50+ EV.
Be sure not to use Berserk too much due to food restriction (even though you may not even need to zerk somewhere around midgame).
Major pluses of the build are your huge EV right off the bat, ability to run from threats, and extremely early Brothers in Arms and gifts. As a SpBe I once received the first Trog gift on D:3, and a quickblade on D:6 is simply a blessing.
It's not your typical Troggie build, but it's definitely fun.

EDIT: Just rolled another SpBe. BIA on D:3, first gift on D:8 ... +1,+10 qblade. Fun times ahead.

[njvack]

SpBe: get yourself a sling and kill dudes with the sling. Slings at maxed skill (especially with branded ammo) do obscene ranged damage, and your aptitudes are great. Trog will give you plenty of steel/silver bullets.

[Velocijacktor]

As an update:

I just played a MiFi of Trog. I leveled up my weapon skill (maces) to min delay for whips extremely quickly. I reached 12 and turned on the rest of my skills. This worked well, and I handled all of my situations correctly. I got gifted an anti-magic spiked flail and a crushing eveningstar. I was on a roll, and had my resistances all in check and was in plate mail with high Fighting, Armour and Shields skill. I made a poor decision by trying to berserk into priests, which was my downfall. However, I cleared 7 levels of the Lair and 7 levels of the Orcish Mines before dying. This was by far my best run. I thank you all for your tips! It's already improving my game.

[njvack]

Wait, there are only four levels of Orc. Did you head into Elf, too? Elf is a lot nastier than Orc. Friggin' summoners.

[Davion Fuxa]

Wait, there are only four levels of Orc. Did you head into Elf, too? Elf is a lot nastier than Orc. Friggin' summoners.

Indeed, if you headed into the Elven Halls and somehow survived to the Third Level, it was likely only death awaited you there - or you would have had a quick trip to the Abyss; highly likely that could happen too.

Keep in mind you shouldn't necessarily clear to the end of Lair or Orcish Mines either. The End Vaults can be somewhat nasty and you might be better off leveling a bit and coming back later. Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't take a peak to see what your up against, but if it is anything really scary you might want to back off and come later. It is usually safer just to clear the levels before the last when playing unless your totally sure you can plow on through the end of the branch as well.

[Velocijacktor]

I miscounted. I must've been on Orc: 4 then. I accidentally dove headfirst into a vault of Orc Priests.

But other than that, I've done well tonight. I've reached the Lair and the Orcish Mines four of five times on my last few runs. Hopefully I can get a three-rune ascension soon!

[njvack]

Ah yes... top-tier orcs (high priests, sorcerers, warlords) are nothing to sneeze at. They'll summon demons, hellfire you... you name it. Because of the way monster HD affects throwing, warlords can do serious damage chucking rocks at you.

Approach Orc:4 (and all branch ends!) with caution. Lair, Orc, Swamp, Snake, Spider, Shoals, and Crypt don't print an explicit message that you're at the end, you just suddenly find a million hydras or greater nagas or impalers or an ancient lich and then you're all "oh noes!" So, um, be mindful of how deep your branch is

[Velocijacktor]

So today I've stopped playing MiFi just because it's all I've been doing the past two days (finals week at my university, I only have two finals... lots of time to kill) and I'm playing a HaHu of Nemelex. First I level up Slings to 12, then I work on Evocations and get that up to the point where my decks become more effective. Obviously, Fighting and Dodging are useful too. I would level Shields up to 7 to wear a buckler as well (since Slings are unaffected by shields). Would this work? I'm playing WizMode right now but only using it to make me invincible. When I'm going to die, I just heal up. I leave everything else alone.

[Zicher]

Approach Orc:4 (and all branch ends!) with caution. Lair, Orc, Swamp, Snake, Spider, Shoals, and Crypt don't print an explicit message that you're at the end, you just suddenly find a million hydras or greater nagas or impalers or an ancient lich and then you're all "oh noes!" So, um, be mindful of how deep your branch is

This might in fact call for a RFE, just a message "You are going to reach the bottom of this branch" when you want to take the stairs to the bottom level. It can be doubly treacherous with the occasional depth changes (latest example: shortening of Vaults from 8 levels to 5 prepared a nasty surprise for my unaware character).
I know, Ctrl+O helps here.

[Psieye]

So today I've stopped playing MiFi just because it's all I've been doing the past two days (finals week at my university, I only have two finals... lots of time to kill) and I'm playing a HaHu of Nemelex. First I level up Slings to 12, then I work on Evocations and get that up to the point where my decks become more effective. Obviously, Fighting and Dodging are useful too. I would level Shields up to 7 to wear a buckler as well (since Slings are unaffected by shields). Would this work? I'm playing WizMode right now but only using it to make me invincible. When I'm going to die, I just heal up. I leave everything else alone.

Mmm, the magic number for bucklers on a small race (halflings) is 9 not 7 but as you say, slings don't care about shields. Traditionally HaHu should go Oka/Trog to get ammo gifts but Nemelex isn't viable too.

As for Wizmode rez scumming, well I guess it is a fast way to get to know the latter depths of the dungeon/branches when you're short on time. Obviously, don't make it a habit.

[crate]

It's 7 for halflings and kobolds, 9 for sp.

[Psieye]

Ah right, and Sp can't equip medium shields at all. I wondered why I had 9/21/- in my memory when it didn't make sense (9 x3 != 21) and it was a misrememberance of 7/21/- and 9/-/-

[ebarrett]

I cleared 7 levels of the Lair and 7 levels of the Orcish Mines before dying.

I miscounted. I must've been on Orc: 4 then.

Well, I'm sorry, but it's no wonder you are bad at the game - apparently you can't either count to four or keep track of where you are, and obviously you are going to need a little more focus than that to succeed. Which skill to which number, which weapon to use, where to go and where not to go - all of that is barely relevant if the game itself is just a blur to you. Following specific advice will improve your survivability, and you might even fluke a win (the game is, after all, heavily stacked towards the player after you reach lair), but you're never going to actually get good if you can't pay attention.

[BlackSheep]

Additionally, if you're wearing a robe or other armor with no EV penalty, you can get away with Shields skill of 1.4 for a buckler.

Ebarrett is harsh, but correct. The game punishes poor decisions, and failure is permanent. Luckily, the game is turn-based, so you have as much time as you need to make decisions. Besides all the specific advice that's been rendered already, take your time not only in the early game, but also as you reach the parts that are new to you. Be aware of how fights are going, and consider that if you're taking increased damage in each encounter it may be time to explore elsewhere for a while.

[BountyHunterSAx]

*grins* Glad to see you already managed to do the Minotaur run! ANd without my help .

So, I want to echo the sentiment of the posts before me because, Velocijacktor? they couldn't be more right. The ability to recognize when a situation calls for your attention and to STOP. I mean that literally- to STOP, take your hands off the keyboard, and just read the board for a minute- that's the only way to ever win this game. I amaze myself, to this day, with how often looking critically over my whole inventory, the floor layout, etc reveals an option that turns my "I hope this works" into a "this really should be just fine". I'm not saying you aren't paying any attention - don't get me wrong - I'm sure the 'Orc:7' thing was just a mistake based on having not been there often enough to know the correct number off the top of your head.

I'm talking more in terms of the styles and symptoms of the mistakes you're making in general. 1.) "I'm playing in WizMode so I don't die". This trains you to not treat near-death situations with the restraint and severity you ought to. It's fine (IMHO) for someone trying to develop a feel for dungeon style/layout with a new character pre-Lair. But it should be viewed like riding a bike with training wheels, and you're way past that point, so it's unnecessary for you.

2.) "I made a poor decision by trying to berserk into priests..."
Berserking into orc priests *sounds* like a good decision to me. If you're already near a staircase and adjacent to them with half your health or more as a 'well leveled' minotaur. The fact that this got you killed leads me to believe (again) that you must have been too hasty in your activation / not read the board carefully.



Separate from all this, I gotta say I don't really think it's smart to be trying tons and tons of new builds at this stage. Find a build you like or a character-type you want to work with that's also suitably OP and then stick with it till you get some runes, die at Vault:7, or win the game. The problem with switching around a lot when you're still learning the game is that different builds have a very different 'feel' for what is and is not dangerous. As it is you're trying to develop your "danger-sense" at this point (or at least you should be), so it makes sense to 'build the instinct' as I call it on one character (or character-type).
As an example? I played over 100 (probably way over) spriggan wizards (and then later felids) before i won. Note how similar these guys are: magic-users, mephitic-cloud powered, fast innately, low armor, and 'favorable hunger mechanics'. The result is that I always viewed ice-beasts as instinctively a VERY difficult enemy. Then I played a minotaur and found it trivial.

Being able to correctly-react to threats requires a level of experience with a character/build that (IMO) requires either a lot of game experience in general, or just a lot of experience with a character-type in specific.



My recommendation to you would be to play 12 Minotaur Berserkers. Don't worry about proper skill order, just get axes/polearms (pick one), fighting, dodging, and armor. And using that, try to clear the Lair. You should reasonably be able to do this at least 50% of the time, provided you learn which enemies to give respect to, when to spam Brothers-in-Arms, and the art of Berserk-timing. The beauty of this build in particular is that it's not very complex, and is (somewhat) equipment-independent ESPECIALLY in the early-to-mid game.

-AHMAD

[BountyHunterSAx]

Also - in case you don't already do it - learn to "stair-hug" . As in, don't simply auto-travel the moment you're on a new floor. Go down one down-staircase, clear around the stairs in a 10-15 square radius, then go back up and go down another staircase. This way, on most floors, you:

1.) Establish 20-40% of the map as 'known/safe' to retreat to.
2.) Know all the fastest exits in case of urgent-retreat needed.
3.) Spend most of your early time on a floor in a space where you can easily berserk, and then retreat to safety while slow.

And it should go without saying, pull dangerous flocks of enemies up one at a time . 1 Death Yak x8 is a lot easier to kill than 8 Death Yaks x1.

-AHMAD

[Lasty]

The "stair-hug" advice is not always the best advice. On your first visit to a floor, you are guaranteed to get the first action, meaning that if you walk downstairs into a nasty crowd, you have a chance to escape (going upstairs, blinking, activating Repel Missiles, whatever). If you continue to explore from that staircase, you'll be able to open up new territory slowly and with a cleared retreat path. If you instead go upstairs and then down a new staircase, you suddenly explore a large amount of territory in one swoop, and you can be injured badly by whatever lives in that territory before you get a chance to respond. It's like randomly teleporting on a mostly-unexplored floor, with the bonus that you're guaranteed to teleport onto a staircase.

[rebthor]

Well, the first part of his advice is pretty good. Checking in all the directions to clear out some space isn't terrible. I prefer to just hit 'o' though as you can always just go back the way you came. It's certainly possible to get your route cut off by a wandering monster but that's always the case.

[nordetsa]

Stair-dancing is hard to pull on certain cases. You'd never want to ascend stairs while 8-headed hydra attack you multiple times.

And I find it really difficult to stair-dance whenever I play mage. Are there certain method for squishy characters? Sometimes the moment I go down the stairs there are 3~4 yaks and 3~4 killer bees waiting for me (a group of orcs are a bonus). I could perhaps stair-dance when I play MiFi (albeit under extreme circumstances) but there's no way DE mage can do this. Then you gotta try other stairs...only to find out that they too are not that different.

In this case what would be the best course of action? One time I got so frustrated I had to use my teleport scroll to land somewhere remote and try lure enemies one at a time.

[BountyHunterSAx]

Yeah, I kind of just assumed that part, though I suppose I should have clarified: "If you can, then clear . . ." And this advice was specifically for the minotaur berserker, who in almost any situation has the hp to tank it.

With a caster, I find the "pre-summon 8 allies" method to be the equivalent precaution.

-AHMAD

[Velocijacktor]

Just because I didn't know that there were four levels of Orcish Mines doesn't mean I don't ever pay attention. This was the first time I had ever been in the Orcish Mines and I had quickly scanned over the Wiki page for it, knowing what enemies were there. I've followed the advice given to me in this thread, and it's paid off pretty well considering I'm at least dying further into the game than I was before.

As for the weapon choice, I had been using whips (that's where I got the furthest on the MiFi). Should I use a polearm and forget the shield? Just a trident, and then eventually a demon trident?

And as for the stair hugging, yes. I've been doing that a lot as well. Whenever I see enemies that I know are going to overwhelm me I pull them up one by one or two by two and finish them off much easier. I've learned that playing the game much more slowly and deliberately helps a lot.

I've also stopped WizMode. I only did that to test a few builds to get a feel for their power later on. I'm back to playing MiFi again.

[nordetsa]

Whips are okay in the early game, but its damage becomes really petty as you descend further into the dungeon. As a fighter, I think you'd want to go for two-handed weapon because you gotta kill enemies asap with high damage output. I'd go for polearm because it has reaching, which helps really much in the early game.

IMO mace&flails aren't that good because minotaur can't wield giant spiked club.

[Velocijacktor]

So would you suggest polearm and shield, or just a polearm for the damage bonus?

[crate]

IMO mace&flails aren't that good because minotaur can't wield giant spiked club.

Good thing great maces are the not-super-rare weapon with the highest base damage in the game then? Great maces are quite good (doubly so if you want a holy brand without TSO).

All weapon types are fine for minotaurs except shortblades.

[Velocijacktor]

I actually got through a good portion of the early branches with a great mace. The only reason I switched was because I got gifted an eveningstar of crushing.

[nordetsa]

IMO mace&flails aren't that good because minotaur can't wield giant spiked club.

Good thing great maces are the not-super-rare weapon with the highest base damage in the game then? Great maces are quite good (doubly so if you want a holy brand without TSO).

All weapon types are fine for minotaurs except shortblades.

Is it? I thought I read somewhere that GSC has the highest damage output.

Anyway, I usually go for two-hand because I want to kill enemies asap. And it's not that easy to find good one-handed weapon that goes well with shields.

[crate]

Well GSC isn't usable by most races. Great mace is still better than everything else except triple swords (well, and giant clubs), and triple swords are rare.

[Psieye]

So would you suggest polearm and shield, or just a polearm for the damage bonus?

Short answer: if you're still learning the game, don't use a shield. Shields are highly controversial but I think everyone can agree that you need to know more about the game to effectively use shields than to just win without one. They can be good but only if you know what you're doing. As a hint, if you just want to beat something up in melee while wielding a shield, you are likely just impeding yourself.

[njvack]

Short answer: if you're still learning the game, don't use a shield. Shields are highly controversial but I think everyone can agree that you need to know more about the game to effectively use shields than to just win without one. They can be good but only if you know what you're doing. As a hint, if you just want to beat something up in melee while wielding a shield, you are likely just impeding yourself.

What? Shields aren't complicated to use. Equip shield. Train shields some, maybe. If the shield makes your spell success bad, don't use it until you train shields more (or use a smaller/no shield). If you find a nice 2-handed weapon you want to hit dudes with, generally use the big weapon and ditch the shield.

Large shields are usually not a good investment for your XP; bucklers often are. Glowing ones can have protection or elemental resistances, which are nice.

There are some kinda complicated details about how shields are less good at blocking multiple attacks per round. You mostly don't care because multiple attacks per round is already bad, and blocking something is better than blocking nothing.

[Psieye]

Short answer: if you're still learning the game, don't use a shield. Shields are highly controversial but I think everyone can agree that you need to know more about the game to effectively use shields than to just win without one. They can be good but only if you know what you're doing. As a hint, if you just want to beat something up in melee while wielding a shield, you are likely just impeding yourself.

What? Shields aren't complicated to use. Equip shield. Train shields some, maybe. If the shield makes your spell success bad, don't use it until you train shields more (or use a smaller/no shield). If you find a nice 2-handed weapon you want to hit dudes with, generally use the big weapon and ditch the shield.

Large shields are usually not a good investment for your XP; bucklers often are. Glowing ones can have protection or elemental resistances, which are nice.

There are some kinda complicated details about how shields are less good at blocking multiple attacks per round. You mostly don't care because multiple attacks per round is already bad, and blocking something is better than blocking nothing.

Awareness of what shields will never even attempt to block was what I meant by "you need to know more about the game to use shields". I guess it's not so bad given 1.5-handedness is gone for good now but still, there's EXP budgeting to do. A beginner going MiFi will already have a lot to think about by around Lair. Having to worry about when to ditch the shield for a 2h (or to spam a launcher) and whether EXP should be invested in shields at all (which implies awareness of what exactly the penalty is before hitting the magic number). If shields has been invested in at all, whether to look for a rare ultimate 1h weapon (and if so, what to do about the common 2h you found), whether to grab some spells instead of relying on pure melee given a shield is denying 2h, god choice to take advantage of invocations ignoring shields, whether to grow stats with a shield in mind, etc.

For example, it's perfectly viable for a medium-sized race to use a large shield (with no EXP investment if desired) if they are going to rely heavily on invocations - e.g. Ely or Maklehb. As a MiFi though? If I want to be a 1h+shield style in the endgame, I go through this complicated dance in the midgame between equipping and taking off the shield for different challenges until I find my eveningstar, broadaxe, double sword or demon weapon.

[crate]

1.5-handedness is not gone...