Melee class with throwing+ranged class question.

[nordetsa]

I've seen several posts about how it is beneficial to train some throwing to soften enemies from the distance. As a fighter that would so wonderful especially in the early game, being able to wear down or even possibly kill those pesky adders or jellies.

Question is, how should you train throwing skills? When I play a MiFi (which I got my 15-rune win with), what I do is I *never* train throwing at all. From start of the game I just train weapon to 10, then armor 10, then fighting 10. At this point I would try lair, train traps up to 5, and then go back to weapon, and then armor and fighting. It works and has worked ok, but I do think having some throwing would be nice. And I want to do some other classes beside fighter, mainly gladiator or skald so that I can get spells early on. But the problem is my mindset is fixed at this fighter scheme: you just melee. At what point could I find a chance to train throwing, and if I do train it, up to how much?

Also, when you go for hunter, just how do you manage early game? I think that's what your melee weapons are for, but then at 0 skills they aren't going to do much dmg. And I gotta train ranged weapon skills, so where do I find the xp to train melee weapon skills? I tried playing Human arcane marksman a few times, but my bolts run out real quickly and my melee weapon don't do much dmg. Don't know what steps do I need to take.

[Davion Fuxa]

When it comes to Ranged and Melee training, the simply answer is that usually you don't train both unless you the game gives you fantastic items for Ranged and Melee - or you have some racial advantage some sort. You basically stick to your primary Weapon skill, while maybe throwing some piddling experience into the other to keep it viable.

That doesn't mean it can't work - trying to train up both a Ranged and Melee skill, just that your trod-ding difficult terrain and it is completely circumstantial as to what your character is doing or experiencing.

[nordetsa]

What I mean is that how people manage to invest some of their xp to training throwing skills so that it can be used to 'soften up' enemies. I saw a post saying how throwing stone is an effective way to kill jelly because it can't dissolve stone. But with a zero throwing skill it takes 3~4 hits to kill a rat with stone. I use darts and clubs in the very early part of the game, but they quickly fall out of favor without any skills. But people seem to utilize throwing well even as a fighter. Of course it would be hard to train both weapon and throwing skill to 27, but I think training throwing up to 6~7 even as a fighter would be a great help to soften enemies as well as finishing fleeing enemies. Question is, when do I train for that?

[Blyxx]

I usually train ranged before melee if it's a character with decent skill apts in both and it's a character that starts with some kind of ranged weapon. Getting half a dozen free potshots in with even darts is strong in the early game, especially in 0.11 since all missiles are buffed compared to old +0 ones. I generally get my ranged skill to 8 or so before getting my melee skill up barring any amazing melee weapon finds.

If you have enough ammo, you can always keep throwing/launching things at melee enemies too if it happens to be more effective than your melee weapon.

[nordetsa]

I usually train ranged before melee if it's a character with decent skill apts in both and it's a character that starts with some kind of ranged weapon.

What kind of race+class would be that? I'd like to give a try to ranged class, but it seems so complicated and I just don't know where to start.

[Blyxx]

I usually train ranged before melee if it's a character with decent skill apts in both and it's a character that starts with some kind of ranged weapon.

What kind of race+class would be that? I'd like to give a try to ranged class, but it seems so complicated and I just don't know where to start.

Ogre hunter is probably the most straight-forward to start with. Pick up every rock and dart you find and throw them at anything remotely threatening. Try not to use your large rocks too much, but if you run into something scary, go ahead and pulverize them. Worshipping Okawaru or Trog is a good way to stockpile branded javelins and extra large rocks in the mid-game, and they'll also give you nice needles sometimes.

If you don't like ogres, you could probably try a minotaur with javelins, I imagine it would work very similarly, and would probably be a lot easier to keep alive in the later parts of the game than an ogre.

EDIT: Added minotaur suggestion since ogres aren't everyone's favorite race.

[nordetsa]

And is throwing skill worth investing all the way up to 27? How does range attack works in terms of skills? For melee weapon you'd want to get min. delay, but what about throwing/bow/crossbow?

[Blyxx]

And is throwing skill worth investing all the way up to 27? How does range attack works in terms of skills? For melee weapon you'd want to get min. delay, but what about throwing/bow/crossbow?

The only time I'd get throwing that high is to use needles of paralysis and stabbing in the endgame (not on an ogre or minotaur, something like spriggan/kobold/halfling), but I don't really know how damage scales with throwing level, knowledge bots have an entry on launcher damage, but not on throwing.

For bow/crossbow, I treat it just like a melee weapon skill, get min delay ASAP, then max it later on (if possible) once you've got more survivability (from dodging/armour/fighting/spells/etc.)

[nago]

And is throwing skill worth investing all the way up to 27? How does range attack works in terms of skills? For melee weapon you'd want to get min. delay, but what about throwing/bow/crossbow?

CommanderC once said

For thrown weapons/missiles every point of str gives more benefit than 2 levels in throwing. Train throwing only to increase your accuracy. It doesn't decrease your delay

Personally, excluding the case of a needle build, I'd train throwing up to 8 only if needing Oka/Trog's ammo gift. Otherwise, I'd be happy enough to keep throwing under that - for example, an Og or Tr can find in dungeon much more large rock than they'll ever need.

[Psieye]

If I intend to serve Oka/Trog, I never train throwing because I want to train bows/crossbows. Ammo gifts are split by what skills you have: I do not want to be getting darts instead of bolts.

If I don't intend to worship divine ammo boxes, then assuming I'm not an Og/Tr, I train throwing to 3. A reasonably cheap investment for a reasonably sized earlygame accuracy bonus.

With bows/crossbows it's actually really difficult to gauge when you'll hit min-delay as it's heavily affected by stats. My MiBe who never put points in Str approached min delay around crossbow 14, or maybe that was when he hit standard (100%) delay. If you're a melee, I'd say it's not that important to get it to min delay - you're only going to use it while you wait for them to come to melee and often times things die in one shot.

[EvilAshe]

How do you know when you've hit minimum delay for ranged weapons? I was under the impression that ranged weapons don't have the same minimum delay aspect as melee and would get steadily faster all the way up to level 27 ala unarmed combat.

[Psieye]

Press @, see if your attack speed is "quite fast".

[BlackSheep]

I saw a post saying how throwing stone is an effective way to kill jelly because it can't dissolve stone. But with a zero throwing skill it takes 3~4 hits to kill a rat with stone.

Jellies have 0 AC and 2 EV. Compare that to a rat which has 1 AC and 10 EV. Nearly every stone thrown at a jelly will hit it and do some damage. Other missiles do more damage, but the jelly will dissolve them and heal itself. If you're worried about corroding your melee weapon, you can continue to throw rocks at melee range. Give it a try.

Early on, stones and clubs are common, but are hampered by low damage and low accuracy respectively. (Clubs get a -5 penalty to hit.) Daggers get an accuracy bonus when thrown, but still don't do very much damage. (though you do count their enchantment bonuses, so that helps) Axes and spears don't carry a bonus or penalty to accuracy beyond their enchantments, but do more damage. I don't usually bother training Throwing at all unless I find javelins or large rocks, and then only 2-4 levels.

Slings increase the base damage of stones, and if you can find a stack of bullets, even untrained you can murder the majority of unarmored early-game monsters.

Hunters start the game with sufficient skill to make their ranged attack strong, but they may have ammo issues unless they luck into an early stack or two. You generally don't need to train their ranged skill right away, and are better off working on a melee skill to supplement your ranged attack.

EDIT: Apparently I totally misremembered the throwing code. Spears get -1 to hit and hand axes get the same -5 to hit as clubs.

[Psieye]

Slings increase the base damage of stones, and if you can find a stack of bullets, even untrained you can murder the majority of unarmored early-game monsters.

This. I pick up a random sling (once I know the remove curse scroll) and a bunch of stones in the earlygame solely to kill the random jelly that inevitably shows up later on. A bunch of bullets added to that and Ogres no longer scare me even with 0 skill. The slings and bullets are completely expendable so I have no qualms about 'wasting ammo'.

[Abominae]

I find Trolls to be quite effective with this strategy. Train ~10 levels into Unarmed Combat and you have a quick, powerful melee weapon online before Lair that can easily handle anything Lair spawns outside of Hydras and certain L:8 spawns (Dire Elephant comes to mind). If you've cleared to D:13 before Lair, you've probably encountered some Cyclops and gotten yourself some Large Rocks. Train throwing a tad bit and use Large Rocks on things you don't want to approach or melee, claw the face off of everything that isn't significant.
Throwing is great on the high Str species and pairs well with UC because it doesn't require a huge investment to be an extremely effective option. Also, Portal Projectile is really good. Giving your character the option to smite target Large Rocks into enemies is some serious stuff.

[omegasean]

I have won with a Merfolk hunter using polearm / javelins.

the initial points in throwing suffice early game, you want to train polearms asap. remember that Heroism boosts throwing by 5, which is huge early game.

midgame you still want to train polearms / fighting / dodging, but you might raise throwing to 8 for god gifts.

endgame i think throwing was at 20 or so, steel and silver javelins were still usefull.

ended up with 6 runes.