The Tavern

Other than the advice given on the Wiki, is there any other tips to successfully Temple Dive? Is it a good idea to Temple Dive or should I take time to explore the floors and clean them up? I'm playing as a SpEn.

I've thought about temple diving but I'm not sure how you do it. If you are diving how do you know you haven't missed the temple entrance? I guess you just dive the first few levels and then explore once you are at the point where the temple might appear? Is that at D:4?

What's your goal?

If your goal is to play in the way that is most likely to win the game, then don't dive.

If your goal is to win with a low turncount (and die more often) then diving to the temple is fine.

What I do to look for temple/lair/vaults when I am diving is I will generally just take staircases as I come across them on the relevant floors. So I will explore d:4 until I find a down stair, then take that, then explore d:5 until I find an up or down stair, take that, etc. You will cover most of each floor this way and hopefully you will run into what you're looking for. I am no expert on low-turncount games though.

It depends on the god you want to choose.

You're increasing your chances to build up piety but you're also increasing the danger you encounter dangerous enemies (say temple is on D6, you can be single shot by a centaur or paralyzed by Grinder or confused by Sigmund) and decreasing the chance of getting earlier portals. Awakened monsters may also be able to pick up wands generated on the floor and use them against you.

So it is best to take time to explore each floor and clear them out?

Yes and no, take time to explore as much as you can, but don't attempt to clear every if you can't. I made this mistake today, trying to clear a D2 Ogre (OOD) just to clear the floor. :/

Basically, have patience. Up to 7 floors worth of not earning piety is absolutley nothing in the long run (of a 3-runer, never mind extended). If you just want to get started with a given god quickly, then consider playing a Monk: +2 piety on joining your first religion.

If you aren't regularly reaching the Lair, then diving to the temple isn't a tactic you should be practicing now. Especially if you're looking to pick up okawaru, sif, or vehumet who are just-as-likely to have another altar sitting around somewhere on D:1-4 anyway.

That said, with spriggan casters (for speed) who want to rely on a vehumet gift to get a Lvl4 conjuration spell online? I will OFTEN leave floors between 1 and 7 incomplete so I can go back and rack up extra piety, since it's entirely possible to get stuck at the lair with just magic dart otherwise. My 'formula' is to only skip a floor when my XL is 1-2 higher than the current floor. So, if I'm XL:4 on floor 4 - don't dive, finish clearing. If I'm XL:5, i might risk it. XL:6? Just go.

And, as always, remember surviving is more important than the negligible investment you're making by skipping for piety later.

-AHMAD

Given that Vehumet has the pretty fast piety decay rate of 1/17, I hope you're planning to rack up that extra piety really fast, or you aren't exactly going to be getting ahead. Unless you left behind a vault with particularly dense piety, like a gnoll castle or an orc room, you probably lose nearly as much piety as you gain from going back to finish off partially-cleared levels.

Thanks everyone. I've been just playing normally exploring as much as I can and clearing as much as I can. I've only been having issues figuring out when to actually fight uniques such as Sigmund.

For most characters fighting sigmund early would be a very bad idea (except berserker, but then if he's with other monsters than it can get dangerous). Most of the time he's best to be left alone. Unqiues like Ijyb and Jessica are relatively easy, but at low levels they can prove to be a great threat.

I would never temple-dive just because I don't want to miss out on the Sewer or Pyramid. Especially the latter, which is a GREAT early-game boost in scrolls and potions and can help you use-ID almost every basic and intermediate potion you have yet to find.

Truthfully it's not really that important to get a deity ASAP. Given the choice between a D:2 altar of Okawaru or a D:2 Ring of Regeneration or Invisibility, I would take either of the rings by far. The deities can wait if they really have to, since one way or the other you'll build up max piety anyway. That and, for most of the gods that require you to kill stuff, waiting until D:7 or D:9 before joining a god as opposed to starting on D:4 or D:2 will mean you're strong enough not to have to run away from as many threats, meaning more kills and more piety than if you were to join too early. I suppose the exception would be if I had an early-game Amulet of Faith, because being able to get ****.. or *****. before even reaching D:9 is awesome and worth the trouble (but I still wouldn't miss out on Sewer or Pyramid to do so, since those are one-time things and the temple on the other hand is not going anywhere).

EDIT:

Conjurers can wreck Sigmund. Early-game Mephitic Cloud and he'll be begging you for mercy even as early as D:2.

On the other hand though, Grinder becomes their worst nightmare, due to his rPois AND rC (so not even Throw Frost works). My RL friend plays this game as straight melee classes and is able to usually defeat Grinder when he meets him, but almost never Sigmund. Anyway you can do fine against either if you have the right Wands, so it's probably most reliable to stay out of their way until you do and then double back later to pwn their sorry butts. (Or you can leave D:2 Sigmund alive and then tens of thousands of turns later slaughter him in one hit while running the Orb of Zot to the surface, winning the game while carrying his fresh corpse in your inventory for Great Justice.)

I think you mean ossuary. Anyway that place can be pretty dangerous depending on character set up-I always find my mage characters restoring to melee attacks to kill zombies. And there can always be a guardian mummy for surprise.

As for conjurers dealing with Sigmund..I have no idea how you can get meph cloud available as early as D:2. Perhaps training conjuration from the beginning might work (I always tried training spellcasting first, but realized it might not be the best case).

I wouldn't also do temple-dive. Sometimes you have to go till D:7 to find one, and there's also chance of that entrance being guarded with some monsters (imagine if an ogre is standing right next to the temple entrance-or perhaps, what would you do if the temple staircase turn out to be a mimic?).

All I need is to be XL 3 and I can instantly memorize it at 30% fail rate. I never said D:2 Sigmund wasn't risky, but it is doable! The times I attempt it, as long as I watch my mana closely I'm usually fine, even if I have to retreat once or twice. Having a Dagger also helps for the stab damage while he is confused.

I need more practice. I keep getting some silly YASD due to lack of experience with monsters.

I'm also having a hard time deciding between Kiku, Ash or Nem.
Kiku Necro and Pain seem pretty awesome. Kiku has some serious synergy as well.
Ash allows me to identify, branch out more easily and if need be move experience via Transfer Knowledge. His abilities lend themselves well to Passwall Stabbing.
Nem's decks are pure awesomeness, at least the ones I've gotten such as Destruction and Summoning. And they help a lot.

So I'm undecided as to which god is best overall all the wy to end game.

Wrong way to think. Gods are there to be abandoned when they are no longer of use to you. The most standard melee religion path is Oka or Trog and then switch to TSO just before doing Crypt. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with going Kiku first then ditching him later on to take up say, Nemelex. You don't switch gods early on because of Wrath but later on you can cope with it.

Actually, in a 3 rune game you rarely want to abandon your god, except maybe to switch between good gods, or from Zin to something with no wrath. Wrath is way too long for a 3 rune game, and building up piety also takes a while.