Surviving the Early Game as a Fighter

[horus92]

So I keep trying to play as a HuFi, but I've only made it to Lair once (I know, I suck!)

I'll usually run into challenges I can't face as early as levels 3-5. Generally an ogre, a large pack of orcs, orc warriors, a ghost, or some unique I can't take on. So I'll run away to a down stairs and proceed, planning to come back when I'm stronger. But the deeper I go, the more frequent these encounters get (particularly ogres and large packs of orcs) and I can't take them on. Without some special item it seems like I as a lower-level fighter have little chance of surviving an ogre or orc warrior or group of priests/wizards.

Any advice?

[varsovie]

When you see a new monster, don't go to fight hit. First look your environment and HP, if it's secure, then don't move forward (unless you want to scout or the foo is a pop corn rat), attract the monster by throwing something (spear, axe...). Two thing, first it will damage him, so it will be easier to kill at melee, second if you see it's an orc PACK and not only a lone Orc, you have 6 to 7 step between you and him, time to flee in relative safety or in a corridor with a corner and take them one by one.

I you could post the dump (#) of some of your fighter, maybe we could give you more specific advices concerning your skills and equipment. You may also want to try Minotaur instead of human, since they have some bonus making them deadlier in melee.

[cganya]

well one quick bit of advice: use any wands you find. later on many of them are fairly useless without evocations but early on almost nothing has any decent MR. polymorph works wonders on ogres, if an ogre is carrying a giant club or a giant spiked club, it will drop it after being polymorphed (this makes them a lot less deadly).

paralysis works wonders on jellies, they cant eat your equipment if they cant move.

confusion on orc and gnoll packs works well because they tend to hit each other more often than single monsters.

if you meet a unique, don't be afraid to blow your early game panic buttons (wands, potions, scrolls, abilities)

scrolls of fear will save you from anything that isn't mindless early in the game. invisibility will usually allow you to get away from a bad fight (speed too but not always from ranged attackers and rarely from centaurs). might and agility potions will give you a huge edge in the early game which is what you might need to get past a hard fight.

[BlackSheep]

Wands of polymorph are also good to use on jellies. They're bad to use on everything dangerous, however, as you can turn a somewhat dangerous early-game threat into a very dangerous OOD threat pretty easily.

[cganya]

Wands of polymorph are also good to use on jellies. They're bad to use on everything dangerous, however, as you can turn a somewhat dangerous early-game threat into a very dangerous OOD threat pretty easily.

yes definitely though I have had jellies turn into some pretty nasty stuff (a yellow wasp once i think) a more reliant way to survive jellies is keep a pile of stones on you (30 or so) and just toss them at the jelly as it approaches. they cant eat the stones and thus don't heal from them.

also wands of random effects are normally not a great idea to use since they can heal, haste or make something go invisible but often in the early game, repeat applications will get you a bolt of something, disintegration, teleport or one of the previously mentioned effects, any one of which can outright kill or remove the lethality of a fight.

[Psieye]

Understand pack psychology: they only shout when seeing you the first time and if the rest of the pack never see you (because you've ducked around a couple of corners) then they will soon give up the chase. The one guy who did see you will continue chasing you and is now isolated.

Oh and in D:1~3, make use of any darts/stones you find. Once you know what a remove curse scroll looks like, pick up a sling (you don't want to risk a cursed sling early on) and use it with 0 skill: it's surprisingly good for softening up Ogres (and is my default solution for jellies) from far away if you haven't found any other OhNo buttons yet.

also wands of random effects are normally not a great idea to use since they can heal, haste or make something go invisible but often in the early game, repeat applications will get you a bolt of something, disintegration, teleport or one of the previously mentioned effects, any one of which can outright kill or remove the lethality of a fight.

This means: use it while you're standing on stairs and the enemy is at least 2 squares away. Then if it goes wrong you can immediately escape. Otherwise, you got yourself an easier fight.

[Galefury]

You should use consumables.

Note that using consumables requires identifying consumables. Rule of thumb: you should read-ID scrolls as soon as possible (have full HP, being on upstairs to a cleared level or on a cleared level so you can go up if it's teleport is nice). You should not quaff-ID potions, instead use all your identify scrolls on potions. Identify large stacks first. Zap wands at single weak enemies (preferably ones with a wall behind them until you ID digging).

Of course there are exceptions to this rule, and it's possible to go into a lot more detail. A lot can be done to get some use out of reading unidentified scrolls.

Edit: to be perfectly clear, this identification strategy is far from optimal. But it's very useful for surviving the early game.

[varsovie]

Yeah, random is very useful IF you have a good distance and a safe escape. It can something throw nasty beams that can allow you taking some big monsters/uniques.

Even the scroll of random unusefulness can spawn butterflies sometime, really good if you've spotted a ranged foo and want to make the battleground safer.

And even if you're a fighter, some low level spells really worth learning : Animate skeleton (so you can eat with a cursed weapon or have a couple of helpers when you need to flee) Stick to snake (helps you having a safer *downstairs), all enchant weapon, some low level charms (and helps going toward haste...) all God abilities.

[Psieye]

My rule of thumb with potion ID'ing is to quaff-ID the potions that I found BEFORE D:3, provided I'm pretty sure I have curing at hand. It's extremely unlikely to get the uh... INTENSE potions (both good and bad) by then and if I do, I haven't lost much progress or loot. Do read scrolls to ID potions afterwards though, unless you're in a rare situation where any good potion will win the battle and any bad potion can be nullified.

And even if you're a fighter, some low level spells really worth learning : Animate skeleton (so you can eat with a cursed weapon or have a couple of helpers when you need to flee) Stick to snake (helps you having a safer *downstairs), all enchant weapon, some low level charms (and helps going toward haste...) all God abilities.

That's for after he's comfortably getting ot Lair and beyond. Not useful in the earlygame.

[Galefury]

The problem with quaff-ID is that each time you ID something useful with it you waste a useful potion. This is not quite as bad for scrolls because they are (on average) not as useful as potions early on.

[cganya]

i really wouldn't suggest a scroll of random uselessness as a way to protect yourself from any ranged attacker unless you have no other options at all (including take a few hits while getting to/ up a set of stairs) The chance that it will spawn those butterflies is very low. a scroll of fog however will break line of sight (making it effective against orc priests as well) as long as the enemy is outside of a three tile radius. scrolls of fog are nice in that they are just as effective in the early game as they are in the late game.

my (un-popular) opinion on quaff-ID'ing potions is to do it. specifically do it in a safe situation where you dont have enemies around, are not hungry, low on health and can go up stairs if for some reason an enemy wanders into view.

my reasoning: not knowing what your potions do in a tough fight (but having a bunch of them) isnt really helpful. knowing what your potions do in a tough fight but not having a lot of them is better. I find that I never have enough ID scrolls unless i'm lucky, or really unlucky (not finding any equipment to ID).

yes you might get a bunch of nasty mutations but you usually run into that early on. if it's survivable, you'll find cure mutation at some point. if it's not survivable then... well mutations are half the fun (besides, you could get lucky and get some really good mutations. teleport control is particularly awesome to have).

i usually stop quaff id'ing potions once i ID mutation (after getting a good set of mutations), after ID'ing cure mutation (if i have none left) or once i run out of unknown potions. all bad potions are very survivable as long as your careful; strong poison and mutation are the only ones that pose any real risk and by the time you find strong poison you should probably have (and ID'd) curing.

[varsovie]

i really wouldn't suggest a scroll of random uselessness as a way to protect yourself from any ranged attacker unless you have no other options at all (including take a few hits while getting to/ up a set of stairs) The chance that it will spawn those butterflies is very low

I didn't said "protect" but "make the battleground safer" i.e. in preparation to, implied you are not under fire yet (corner or door in the way).

For pot ID, I *never Quaff ID with less than three potion of the same type. This way early on only the somewhat good and expendable or the not-so-bad are identified. I try to do the same with scrolls.
(*unless emergency or last resort or only good pot unidentified).

[Davion Fuxa]

I'd be extremely careful with Wand of Polymorph. Jelly's and Ogre's might be worthwhile to use the wand on, but that doesn't mean you might get something less preferable. Recently on the Mountain Dwarf I'm currently screen recording with in my Let's Plays, I poly-morphed a Jelly into a Boggart; I can confirm though that polymorphing an Ogre so it drops its Giant Spiked Club is sometimes a good strategy if you aren't afraid of what it might turn into when you do - I polymorphed a Ogre to a Naga in one of my recent Let's Play's too.

In Terms of Quaff-ID and Read-ID scrolls, my general recommendation is to wait until about D:4 or D:5 and only attempt to ID your consumables on an stairway. Start with your Scrolls first - as stated they tend to help you less in the early game - Potentially you might take a little risk and go down to an unexplored level if you want to try and make the best of Magic Mapping should you get it, else you might remain a level up in case you get Teleportation. From there, maybe examine your scrolls to see how many Identify or Remove Curse you might have picked up or how many 'Panic Button' Scrolls you might have along with whatever other Panic Button items you have picked up. If you have a good lot of Identify and Remove Curse and have few Blinking, Fear, Fog, and so forth to get you out of tight situations along with whatever else - then consider uses the Scrolls of Identify on your potions. If Scrolls like Remove Curse or Identify aren't as plentiful and you have oodles of Scrolls for escape situations, then Quaff-ID your Potions

[varsovie]

I think the monster I use polymorph other on most often is orc warrior.

Any reason why?

I tend to poly only monsters with nasty abilities if I can't cope with it, sometime Jelly, Uniques, kobold with wand... (sadly nastiest things have high MR).
I did it once when I was starving to get edible food instead of poisoned, now I don't wield ID rings without RC.

[BlackSheep]

Orc Warriors can generate with armor and weapons that make them very tough when they first appear. Polymorphed creatures drop their equipment, so that's a nice debuff.

I wouldn't recommend polymorphing Ogres. They have awful defenses. If you can engage them from the edge of LOS, you should be able to whittle them down to very low health by the time they reach you.

[cerebovssquire]

I think the monster I use polymorph other on most often is orc warrior.

Any reason why?

Polymorph is affected by HD. Orc warriors are extremely dangerous when you choose to fight them, but they still only have 4 HD. So the monsters they polymorph into are generally weaker.

[BlackSheep]

I believe monsters drop their equipment regardless, but if it turns into something that can wear the stuff, it'll just pick it up again. This doesn't even slow down most creatures since they can swap equipment instantly.

[Davion Fuxa]

I believe monsters drop their equipment regardless, but if it turns into something that can wear the stuff, it'll just pick it up again. This doesn't even slow down most creatures since they can swap equipment instantly.

Monsters that are polymorphed an unable to carry their equipment will drop it, Monsters that are polymorphed that are able to carry their equipment will retain it. Unless you turn the Orc into a monster that cannot hold the equipment, it will still be holding it and not miss a beat. This is at least what I have observed through Polymorphing Sigmund into a Gnoll, there was no text to say he dropped his Scythe and picked it up again.

[Psieye]

I think the monster I use polymorph other on most often is orc warrior.

For me, it's quasits.

The problem with quaff-ID is that each time you ID something useful with it you waste a useful potion.

my (un-popular) opinion on quaff-ID'ing potions is to do it. specifically do it in a safe situation where you dont have enemies around, are not hungry, low on health and can go up stairs if for some reason an enemy wanders into view.

Oh no no no no, that is NOT how to quaff-ID potions. You lure something badass near the stairs and go up (e.g. a unique or an Ogre that showed up just around the corner). Then you sit and chug your potions until you find something powerful: might, agility, speed or rage. Now you go downstairs, beat that badass thing and then continue - never waste a good potion just because you were quaff-ID'ing it. Certainly not foolproof (can't help wasting heal wounds and restore abilities), but this is why I only quaff-ID stuff I picked up early on.

[cganya]

I think the monster I use polymorph other on most often is orc warrior.

For me, it's quasits.

The problem with quaff-ID is that each time you ID something useful with it you waste a useful potion.

my (un-popular) opinion on quaff-ID'ing potions is to do it. specifically do it in a safe situation where you dont have enemies around, are not hungry, low on health and can go up stairs if for some reason an enemy wanders into view.

Oh no no no no, that is NOT how to quaff-ID potions. You lure something badass near the stairs and go up (e.g. a unique or an Ogre that showed up just around the corner). Then you sit and chug your potions until you find something powerful: might, agility, speed or rage. Now you go downstairs, beat that badass thing and then continue - never waste a good potion just because you were quaff-ID'ing it. Certainly not foolproof (can't help wasting heal wounds and restore abilities), but this is why I only quaff-ID stuff I picked up early on.

Even with a decent potion buff, walking down a set of stairs next to an ogre in the early game can get you pretty messed up cant it? I lost a promising ogre conjurer that way to an ettin on ork 4 when I forgot that going up and down stairs takes time.

[Galefury]

How to quaff ID: DON'T. Usually.

Re cganya's post: if you managed to leave something you cant beat safely without potions behind at the stairs, 90% of the time you should just go down some other stairs and ignore it instead of wasting potions on a threat you don't need to face. Also bad potions can be quite bad.