Tengu Monk advice?

[SchwaWarrior]

This might be kind of a dumb thread, but I figured, why not at least ask?

I've been doing pretty well at Tengu Monk lately; my recent attempt got me all the way down into the Hall of Blades before I died. Considering I have a very rough time with melee characters, this is great for me in general. Still haven't gotten any runes yet though.

My strategy is to start out training up Unarmed, Throwing and Dodging, and putting about 3 or 4 levels in Armor. As soon as I find a runed/glowing weapon of any kind, I equip it to see if it's branded, and if it's really good, I stop training Unarmed at about 7 or 8 levels and pour most of my training into that weapon for the rest of the game. Last couple games I had a +2+2 Anti Magic War Axe and a +3+3 Vorpal Hand Axe. I also pick up any arrows, bolts, and sling bullets I come across, then as long as I have a Remove Curse scroll on hand I try out any runed/glowing slings, bows or crossbows I find, and usually the first good one I find (branded and/or +1s and +2s or higher), I leave Throwing at about 6 or 7 levels and put the rest in that missile weapon (last two games it's been Slings, and then Okawaru gave me a Randart +5+4 Vorpal Slingshot with rC++ so that worked out AMAZING, I was three-shotting Hill Giants from across the screen ). As for armor, I try to go with a Shield if I find one, unless I find a great 1.5-handed or 2-handed weapon or if I find an awesome bow before I find a decent Shield... Tengus are frail so I'm kind of intimidated to go without armor; it's too hard to simply rely on Dodging to get through everything, 'cause I feel like it's relying too much on chance if I can dodge 99 out of 100 hits but that 100th hit will always be a one-hit-kill I pick up anything Scale Mail or weaker early game and stick with the one with a brand or several +s, putting points into STR every 3 levels up (I already start the game with pretty good DEX, but I want to be able to wear at least medium armor without problems ASAP). If I get the chance to obtain Trollhide, Steam or Mottled Armor and enchant it heavily, I go with that, unless/until I get a really good Randart. And as for deities, I like Okawaru the best, but I've played some games using Yredumul(sp?) or Fedhas, both of which are very very fun, getting armies of allies to help me fight on the front lines, and Yred's Mirror ability is so frickin' satisfying in the Orc Mines I'm against using Trog for moral reasons, I feel like it's a cheap way to play, like picking Wesker or Virgil or Zero in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 because they're top tier x_x and sometimes I go with Xom because it's funny, especially with my friend watching. ^^ It really depends on which altars show up; if I get Yred or Fedhas on D:1 or D:2 it's a definite pick, and if I got a Corrupted Temple I'd try out Lungou because I don't get the chance to so often.

What I would like to hear is how you guys would play a Tengu Monk, so I can see what other people do differently than me so I have more ideas as to how to play this one. I'm looking for both advice and a good discussion, basically.

Drink more coffee!
--Schwa

[cerebovssquire]

Here's how I would play most Tengu Monks of Okawaru, assuming no special equipment drops, and assuming that I'm playing to win (if I am playing for fun I might prefer playing an unarmed TeCK). Monks generally want to focus on Unarmed Combat only in the beginning, because Unarmed Combat goes from really bad damage at low levels to decent damage at mid-levels.

Unarmed Combat -> 15, pick Oka at Temple, use Heroism a lot especially to compensate for low defence, use Flight a lot for speed and EV boost
Dodging -> 10
Fighting -> 10, increases damage/accuracy and gives precious precious HP
Unarmed -> 20
Invocations -> Finesse under 10% failure
[Armour about 10 if I find a good medium armour - scale mail is definitely not worth it, fire/ice/pearl dragon armour can be]
[Shields 15 if I find a good shield]
Dodging+Fighting -> 15
Traps -> 6-9

If you find really good spells (for TeMo this means good air spells, Haste and other buffs, and translocations and transmutations) you can train for them if your melee skills are ok (they are ok at Unarmed 15 and Dodging 10 for purpose of Haste, wait longer for other spells). If you like using ranged weapons they are a strong option too, again after Unarmed 15 and Dodging 10. If you find a good buckler wear it and train the skill to 5 if you have enough UC. Heavy armour isn't very good for this, since it increases the delay you need for unarmed attacks. At any rate, scale mail is very bad because it will severely impede your EV while not actually giving good AC. Mottled dragon armour and troll leather armour, on the other hand, are pretty good. You need 9 STR to wear "medium" (EV -3) armour and you have that from the beginning. DEX is better even if you don't want to cast spells (which is a challenging conduct). You should raise INT if you are playing to win.

AC is not much more "reliable" than Dodging because GDR is less significant than you would think.

Throwing is not actually a very good skill to train, definitely not so early on. As CommanderC explains somewhere (this guy is pretty much always right) it does not decrease attack delay, and STR plays a more significant role in damage than skill - it mainly does accuracy and special blowgun effects.

With Fedhas, always keep 3-4 mushrooms around you pre-Lair and in Lair, you can stop using them soon afterwards if you like. With Yredelemnul, never underestimate Drain Life and surround yourself with zombies as much as possible.
For unarmed TeMo these three gods are probably better than Trog

As a general rule for every character, that should not be taken literally in all cases: train exclusively a skill or skills (in rare cases) that help you kill stuff, when you can kill stuff fine then train skills that help you survive, continue according to what you find.

p.s. do you prefer instant or filtered coffee, I seem to be alone in the world in being addicted to the former

[Jabberwocky]

My grandmother prefers instant coffee, you are not alone.

[SchwaWarrior]

Here's how I would play most Tengu Monks of Okawaru, assuming no special equipment drops, and assuming that I'm playing to win (if I am playing for fun I might prefer playing an unarmed TeCK). Monks generally want to focus on Unarmed Combat only in the beginning, because Unarmed Combat goes from really bad damage at low levels to decent damage at mid-levels.

Unarmed Combat -> 15, pick Oka at Temple, use Heroism a lot especially to compensate for low defence, use Flight a lot for speed and EV boost
Dodging -> 10
Fighting -> 10, increases damage/accuracy and gives precious precious HP
Unarmed -> 20
Invocations -> Finesse under 10% failure
[Armour about 10 if I find a good medium armour - scale mail is definitely not worth it, fire/ice/pearl dragon armour can be]
[Shields 15 if I find a good shield]
Dodging+Fighting -> 15
Traps -> 6-9

That sounds amazing. Thanks. Next game I will try it this way and see if it improves my success.

If you find really good spells (for TeMo this means good air spells, Haste and other buffs, and translocations and transmutations) you can train for them if your melee skills are ok (they are ok at Unarmed 15 and Dodging 10 for purpose of Haste, wait longer for other spells). If you like using ranged weapons they are a strong option too, again after Unarmed 15 and Dodging 10. If you find a good buckler wear it and train the skill to 5 if you have enough UC. Heavy armour isn't very good for this, since it increases the delay you need for unarmed attacks. At any rate, scale mail is very bad because it will severely impede your EV while not actually giving good AC. Mottled dragon armour and troll leather armour, on the other hand, are pretty good. You need 9 STR to wear "medium" (EV -3) armour and you have that from the beginning. DEX is better even if you don't want to cast spells (which is a challenging conduct). You should raise INT if you are playing to win.

Dangit, see I keep forgetting about the unexplained odds and ends about armor-wearing rules, stuff about attack delays and whatnot. This is good to know. I always assumed people thought medium armor was "bad" just because it wasn't specialized enough, I didn't know there was that bit about attack delays. (I stopped reading the wiki some time ago because apparently none of it is "up to date" whenever I ask @_@)

AC is not much more "reliable" than Dodging because GDR is less significant than you would think.

'kay.

Throwing is not actually a very good skill to train, definitely not so early on. As CommanderC explains somewhere (this guy is pretty much always right) it does not decrease attack delay, and STR plays a more significant role in damage than skill - it mainly does accuracy and special blowgun effects.

'kay. So if I find something like Steel Javelins I'll get more use out of them by upping STR than throwing skill. (And then Slings is DEX-based, right?)

With Fedhas, always keep 3-4 mushrooms around you pre-Lair and in Lair, you can stop using them soon afterwards if you like. With Yredelemnul, never underestimate Drain Life and surround yourself with zombies as much as possible.
For unarmed TeMo these three gods are probably better than Trog

I'm starting to think they're better than Okawaru too. Okawaru's weapon gifts are nice and so is Heroism and Finesse, but they don't help me defeat a Hill Giant if I'm still too underleveled. Yred and Fedhas seem to be defensive gods though, and I could surround myself with protective allies and make my escape, or fight while a foe is distracted, and even if I use a Teleport scroll the allies still sometimes score the kill (against hordes of Orcs with Priests I've noticed the Yred zombies usually win while I'm off-screen ). This strategy seems to go a lot better with a frail Tengu, in fact it's kinda like playing a caster even though it's melee, since my job is to keep my character (relatively) safe while fighting with tricks and tactics, instead of head-on.

I love Okawaru though... Maybe he'd go better with a different race than a Tengu? It's not like I HAVE to play ONLY Tengu Monks, maybe I'll try a High Elf Gladiator or Fighter or something some time. (Or Hill Orc, but see if I do that then I'm going with Beogh hands down. Beogh is SO FUN.)

As a general rule for every character, that should not be taken literally in all cases: train exclusively a skill or skills (in rare cases) that help you kill stuff, when you can kill stuff fine then train skills that help you survive, continue according to what you find.

Offense is the best defense, eh? It makes sense though. Earlier on the only "dynamic" opponents are some Uniques, and Orc Wizards and Priests, everything else's strategy mostly consists of "run up to you and whack you". Later on you get Centaurs which will DESTROY you if you're too far away and they can't be run from, you get Jellies which have to be handled very very specially or they'll ruin your entire inventory (degrading your equipment) or take over the level... By then I'd want to be better at surviving in more ways, but early on when things are simpler, I should focus on being able to mow stuff down.

I really tend to forget that the game changes the further on you go. ^^;;

p.s. do you prefer instant or filtered coffee, I seem to be alone in the world in being addicted to the former

I use a French Press to make my coffee. And my favorite roasts are Italian, Sumatra and Komodo (which is Japanese and very strong). Kona is interesting too although it doesn't taste like any other coffee I've ever had in my life, it's not bitter at all, it's more savory. And Ethiopian is pretty awesome, though I hardly ever get to have it. French is somewhat boring, as are many of the blonder roasts, I like the deep, powerful, consuming flavors found in dark roasts a lot better.

I HAVE AN IDEA. Put a coffee item in Crawl. I have no idea what it would do, but, just do it.

Gets me thinking, what if Food Shoppes could sometimes sell food items found nowhere else in the whole dungeon? That'd make them more interesting. Then you could have some foods with bonus effects, like how Royal Jelly and Ambrosia do; coffee could bestow Swiftness for a while, curry could bestow Resistance for a while, kimchee would be very filling but inflict Sickness or Nausea for a while, etc. It's just a fun goofy thought.

[crate]

The main reason that you train offensive skills before defensive skills is that they scale better. A dagger at 10 skill does significantly more than twice as much damage as a dagger at 0 skill. Armour 10 only gives you +10/22 of your base AC (not going to double your survivability against most enemies); 10 dodging gets you to about 20 EV, again not enough to double your survivability from 0 dodging. It's pretty clear with spells too, since not only do you get access to much better spells but the ones you do have also get more powerful.

[SchwaWarrior]

Well, today I tried raising Unarmed Combat to 10 followed by Dodging without raising up anything else in between, and it did indeed make a MASSIVE difference for the better. I died on Lair:1 simply because a Spiny Frog came the fuck out of nowhere and three-shotted me, but before that point I was able to practically steamroll everything. I was also playing with Fedhas that time, and to be honest I think it worked out a lot better than Okawaru after all, because there were several times the mushrooms were able to save my life (usually mobs of Orcs of all three types with nothing to hide behind, one time it was Killer Bees oh god that was scary), so from now on I'm probably gonna gravitate toward either Fedhas or Yred when I play Tengu Monk, and only take Okawaru if I get his altar really early like in D:2 or 3 or something, or Lungou if I'm lucky enough to get a Corrupted Temple. Even when I do well and have fantastic stats and skills, there's really no way to avoid a Giant Spiked Club Ogre taking out two thirds of my HP in one hit if he hits me, so it seems to me the defensive abilities Fedhas or Yred have to offer are almost mandatory.

Too bad about the out-of-nowhere death this time though. I'm gonna miss that DEX+4 STR+5 rF++ randart ring. :'(

EDIT: Oh and in case it wasn't clear, this post is a huge THANK-YOU to those who offered me the advice, because it improved my game by a gigantic amount. ^w^ Out of all the online communities I've ever been to, this one is one of the nicest and most constructive I've ever seen.