Unarmed Combat Str Weight

[midknight129]

I've searched both the wiki and the forum but haven't been able to get the slightest gleam of info:

What is the strength weight of Unarmed Combat? Or do Dex and Str factor into it differently?

[BlackSheep]

Unarmed attacks have a strength weight of 40%.

(see fight.cc -> player_weapon_str_weight() )

[some12fat2move]

Also note that for any STR weight above 0%, Strength will increase damage more than Dexterity.
...I think.

[Jabberwocky]

Heavier armour is the only reason to raise strength.

[some12fat2move]

Also note that even with "100%" strength weight, more dexterity is still usually better than more strength, because more dexterity gives you more EV.

Only if you invest XP in dodging - which you very well might not if you're, for instance, a Troll.

Also note that you should probably just raise intelligence instead anyway.

Not if you're a Berserker

My TrBe days are long gone but I do look back on them with a certain fondness. I also recall raising DEX on them because I didn't understand the calculations and forumgoers assured me that DEX was better.

[Jabberwocky]

Dex is stll better, even as a Be.

[Southpaw]

Though if that Be has any intentions of dropping Trog and getting spells, they should probably raise Int even though it will have no immediate return

[some12fat2move]

Dex is stll better, even as a Be.

But not as a Troll.

Though if that Be has any intentions of dropping Trog and getting spells, they should probably raise Int even though it will have no immediate return

Of course.

[some12fat2move]

Um, dex is much better than str on trolls. Especially berserkers.

Uhhh...when I tried that I never got EV much past 10. I never exactly trained Dodging much since UC and Fighting seemed better, and never managed to get more than a rune or two on any Troll, but still...the EV increase seemed pretty pathetic (especially when you're donning some dragon armour). Not as good as the large rock increase from STR, anyway. I would assume DEX is better for endgame when you've got enough spare exp to max Dodging, but it's notoriously tough to keep TrBe alive that long.

[crate]

My latest troll finished with like 30 ev, which went up to 39 with agility. But then I've never actually won a troll in anything heavier than fire dragon armour.

My five troll wins had these EV values: 30-ish (can't tell because I used agility), 31 (with chei), 10, 25 (jiyva), 20 (chei).

[some12fat2move]

My latest troll finished with like 30 ev, which went up to 39 with agility. But then I've never actually won a troll in anything heavier than fire dragon armour.

My five troll wins had these EV values: 30-ish (can't tell because I used agility), 31 (with chei), 10, 25 (jiyva), 20 (chei).

Like I said, endgame EV can get really good, but most players can't get their Trolls that far. Hats off to you on the feat.

[BlackSheep]

Incremental strength increases will do no more to help you survive to the endgame than incremental dex increases will.

[some12fat2move]

Incremental strength increases will do no more to help you survive to the endgame than incremental dex increases will.

Damage bonuses give diminishing returns while evasion bonuses give increasing returns. Not to mention...large rocks.

[BlackSheep]

...can be thrown by Trolls just as easily with 24 strength as with 26.

[some12fat2move]

...can be thrown by Trolls just as easily with 24 strength as with 26.

But the Troll with 26 can carry an extra one!

[BlackSheep]

Yes, very good, go update the wiki page with that strategy. Clearly carrying 8 large rocks instead of 7 is the key to getting a troll past Lair.

[some12fat2move]

Yes, very good, go update the wiki page with that strategy. Clearly carrying 8 large rocks instead of 7 is the key to getting a troll past Lair.

I don't use the wiki anymore thanks to knowledge bots. But in any case, I'm just trying to illustrate that sometimes (as in, when you aren't training dodging) DEX doesn't help. And I know dodging is one of the best skills to train on most characters, but I'm sure we've all ascended some characters with lousy EV (one of crate's trolls for instance had only 10), and DEX didn't help much there. I'm just contesting the notion that DEX is always better than STR - which is true nearly all of the time, but there are some 3-rune characters that don't invest in dodging and therefore see even less return from DEX than from STR.

[rebthor]

Yes, very good, go update the wiki page with that strategy. Clearly carrying 8 large rocks instead of 7 is the key to getting a troll past Lair.

Done. I also said they should pick up a weapon skill in case of Hydras.

[some12fat2move]

Well aren't you funny.

[crate]

Btw I was training dodging (and casting spells, except for my trfi) on all those but the FDA troll by lair. Dex only giving returns lategame is not really true, though I was raising int on all of them anyway.

I also basically don't use large rocks though because I think carrying and throwing them is annoying.

[KoboldLord]

Training dodging on a TrBe might not give very good returns, but on the other hand you're a TrBe. What else are you going to spend the xp on? You probably already have all your major skills maxed out already.

[some12fat2move]

Training dodging on a TrBe might not give very good returns, but on the other hand you're a TrBe. What else are you going to spend the xp on? You probably already have all your major skills maxed out already.

Fighting, UC, Armour, and maybe Throwing. With Troll aptitudes those may not even be max-able in a 3-rune game. And don't underestimate strength, which in this case boosts your base damage by about 3% more per point than dexterity. With 9 choose-able stats at XL27 we're looking at 18% more base damage going with strength than going with dex. I mean I guess dex could be better but still...large body, bad dodging, and probably better off in heavy armour? It's hard to believe dex is better than str here.

In hopes of somewhat amending the derail, TrBe is simply my example of a case where STR might be feasibly better than DEX, which according to you blue-names is impossible aside from armour mitigation. Your track record all but guarantees that you're correct, but still I believe there are a few (very few) instances where the DEX>STR principle is not true or at least fuzzy. I guess that just makes me worthy of ridicule though.