Question from a very bad player

[Maximus]

So, I've recently gotten good enough (or, not-very-bad enough) to have a few characters get past Lair and Orc Mines. After that, I have no idea what to do next.

I mostly go back and forth between MiFi of Okawaru/Trog and OpWi of Vehumet/Sif, and my general strategy is to go down the main dungeon until it seems like it's too dangerous, then go back and do Lair 1-8, then Orc Mines 1-4. After that, I mainly just thrash around until I die. My last MiFi died after Orc Mines when I decided to just continue down the main dungeon and ran into Aizul, a unique I had never encountered before, without poison resistance of any kind.

My short-term goal is to get a rune. I've never gotten one. I know, I suck.

[njvack]

So, I've recently gotten good enough (or, not-very-bad enough) to have a few characters get past Lair and Orc Mines. After that, I have no idea what to do next.

I mostly go back and forth between MiFi of Okawaru/Trog and OpWi of Vehumet/Sif, and my general strategy is to go down the main dungeon until it seems like it's too dangerous, then go back and do Lair 1-8, then Orc Mines 1-4. After that, I mainly just thrash around until I die. My last MiFi died after Orc Mines when I decided to just continue down the main dungeon and ran into Aizul, a unique I had never encountered before, without poison resistance of any kind.

My short-term goal is to get a rune. I've never gotten one. I know, I suck.

This is generally what Crawl is.

If you're clearing Lair and Orc, you're no longer a terrible player. I'd recommend focusing on one build for a while (HOBe or MiBe are nice slashy types) as long as that remains fun -- diversifying playstyles can come later.

Ultimately, you want to be getting better at killing things (and not dying) as you go through Lair and Orc -- getting better gear, leveling, and especially training skills.

Expect uniques to be horribly dangerous. (x)amine them, check them in the Henzell database, and treat them with great respect.

Don't be afraid to use your divine powers. Brothers in Arms solves almost all problems you'll find in a 3-rune game. Trog's Hand may provide enough healing to let you survive terrible poison. Heroism is cheap (piety-wise) and both makes you dish more damage and take less -- 5 skill levels across the board is HUGE.

Also: what generally kills you? Is it getting caught in melee with a monster that's too tough? Getting trounced by ranged attackers? Getting swarmed by monsters?

But, really -- expect to get killed. Lots. When it happens, don't immediately roll a new character. Think about what went wrong -- what was the point where you were screwed? Could anything in your inventory have maybe helped? A lot of times, you'll realize "oh, I had !curing or ?fog and forgot, d'oh" -- tactical mistakes. If you're feeling like "this was the easiest branch of the dungeon I could go to but it was still way too hard" you're more likely running afoul of strategic errors in skill training and gear choice.

[Styro]

I am by no means a great Crawl player, but this is some advice posted by cerebovssquire detailing the order he tends to do things, which I have found very useful. In the quote below "D" = "Main Dungeon".

D 1-13
Lair 1-8
Orc 1-4
D 14-20
V 1-7
D 21-27
get two Lair runes
V:8
Zot 1-4 (I hate ascending through uncleared Zot, and the experience really helps too in my opinion)
Zot:5

I usually only dive the Lair branches. Sometimes I clear Snake, and while I cleared Spider the two times I got it out of curiosity, I don't think I will in the future. Then again, you'll need to kill the Hellspider so it won't be that easy once it is introduced, maybe?
Of course this also means that I don't do bonus branches like Crypt, Elf, Blade, Slime etc.

A couple things stand out here. He tends to not get the runes until basically clearing the whole dungeon. The initial D 1-13 in my experience depends on your abilities and equipment. I usually dive until either D13 or until I start running into unseen horrors (if I don't have see invisi), whichever comes first.

IMO, Octopode (although fun) is very difficult because of the lack of armour. At least it is for my playing style. I would recommend Deep Elf or Spriggan for your caster. And for Spriggan I would recommend Venom Mage. You can poison things and stay away from them until they die. If you go Sif or Vehemut you will eventually get more powerful spells to use against poison immune things. Another powerful Spriggan choice is Enchanter but that also requires very a specific and patient play style.

For melee characters you have to play very cautiously - luring things around corners and killing them one at a time. I tend to get impatient with them and that is when I die.

Other general tips: focus your player's skills. A focused player is much, much more powerful than a generalist. If you are going melee, turn off everything except your weapon skill for a while. Then maybe leave your weapon focused and turn on dodging or armour, or add a few levels of Fighting. For spellcasters, turn off everything except maybe conjurations. Add Spellcasting when you need new spell levels or to reduce hunger (if needed). Add spell schools only to reduce spell failure when needed.

[ebarrett]

Lair -> orc -> whatever, really. If you're getting past lair you're eventually going to win. Postponing lair branches until things look too dangerous elsewhere and then postponing branch ends until you have nothing else to do anymore is a good general rule for the "whatever" bit.

You just have to die to the new stuff some more, really - if you had never seen Aizul yet, certainly you lost a ton more characters before lair/orc than after (doesn't everyone), and your post is probably just a kneejerk reaction to losing a really good char. By the way, treat every new unique you find as "fuckin' scary" - these days, they all probably are.

[TehDruid]

Even that useless orc with the javelins got buffed to orc knight level stats. :/

[Grimm]

If you're running MiFi^Trog, run MiBe instead. It's the same thing with earlier benefits.

[Konebred]

Minotaur are a great race, and probably the most popular for a first win. Mino Berserker is the most popular from what I have seen. Mino monk of Okawaru is pretty strong too, and plays similar. The retaliatory headbutt helps a ton in the lower levels until unarmed catches up in damage to weapons around level 15 or so from what I have seen. If you are consistently getting past lair, then you are doing well. Just keep playing and you will start to get a better idea of what you can handle and what you can't. One thing I will say about fighter types, you can't go wrong with about 10 levels of evocations. Wands of cold, flame and draining are hydra killers when you first run in to them. I am pretty sure when you drain a unique its level loss is permanent. So if you have a couple wands and a unique is bugging you, drain it and run. Come back later when you can kill it easier and it will have less HP from the draining. A lot of the game is really just learning when to use your expendables wisely too, that comes with playing.

[BountyHunterSAx]

So, I'm gonna go out on a limb and contradict the repost of Cerebovssquire's advice. I think it's actually a really bad idea - at your current level of play - to follow it. Doing that sort of thing assumes you have a lot of skill and can work without the padding of bonus EXP.

In general, the way I view it, you are looking for *every* source of experience you can stack in order of how safe it is to get that exp as you go, at least until your main skills are trained. I've recently successfully run an MiBe (my first try - woot), so here's some specific advice.

* Fighting, Axes/Polearms (whatever you're using), Unarmed Combat, Armor, and Dodging are all you'll need to level until Orc:4 is cleared. 8-12 levels in T&D is nice eventually but yeah.
* The "easiest" order in *general* to clear things is D:1->13, Lair:1-3. When you're ready to deal with hydras and spiny frogs, push Lair:4->8. If you're not ready, break for just Orc:1 to buff out your trog piety so you can have brothers in arms and/or a new gifted weapon to deal wit with. DO NOT give in to the temptation to try Orc:2 yet, as the odds of you getting into a nasty situation are too high. Once you've finished clearing out the Lair, head on over to the Orcish mines. DO NOT feel obligated to complete Orc:4. If the layout isn't good, or your defenses are still crap you can come back here later. Being banished to the abyss or swarmed by hostile High Orc Priests/Sorcerer summons will likely prove fatal! Still, if you've got tele scrolls, control blink, reasonable defenses, or are "good enough to handle it", then Orc:4 should be clearable at this time.

*Now's the point you're getting stuck at, right? IF (big if!) you have poison resist, Snake:1 poses almost no challenge. Worst will be 2-3 anacondas and a viper or two (barring uniques). Snake:2-4 are similar, but you'll have to contend with some legit fighters and mages as well. Snake:5 you should avoid for now. This branch will help you level your skills and possibly find good items/consumables. DO NOT ATTEMPT without rPois!
The Swamp is simpler, but trickier. Simpler in that the enemy roster (vampiric mosquitoes, blink-clouds, swamp leech, swamp worm, bog mummy, swamp drake, swamp dragon, alligators/crocodiles, hydras) is decidedly less dangerous in general. More complicated in that terrain is a real pain to work through... and mistakes can get you killed. In particular: fighting an alligator while it is in the water is a death sentence. Being mephitic'd by a swamp dragon/drake is a likely death sentence.
Still, swamp will likely be where you can get your first rune. If you're strong enough to kill hydras, and swamp dragons reliably then you've got the strength you need to win it. Again, in general, I only recommend 1-2 floors worth of "exp-scumming" at this point, unless you're confident.
[[SideNote: DO NOT engage Wiglaf, Aizul, Mennas, or Sant Roka at this time! They are suited better for Lvl18 (minimum) and up. I repeat: if you see these fellows in snake/swamp DROP that branch and go elsewhere!]]

* Main Dungeon -> vaults next. You're really looking to get into the vaults sooner here. ALso, be sure you leave yourself a cache of scrolls in the Lair including your enchant armour/weap I,II,IIIs, and your cure mutation pots. I also like to keep at least a1 restore abilitiy and 2 or so wound/curing in stock. This is because you are VERY LIKELY to start suffering consumable loss due to cold/hot as you proceed and there's little you can do about it barring preservation.

* When clearing the Vaults, I *strongly* recommend a side-stop in the Crypt. ESPECIALLY if you're not planning on an extended endgame with a TSO-switch later on. Bone Dragons, Rotting Ghouls, and Skeleton Knights are the toughest customers you're regularly encounter here. While Ancient Lich's and such may be on floor 5, and curse skulls (avoidable) are here too, these are kind of a non-factor. Clearing Crypt 1-4 is a really easy source of bonus EXP to help you pad out your skills along with get some more consumables. ... Just do *NOT* attempt to do the Tomb. You will regret it...or die. Quite possibly both.

*Do not do Vault:8. Vault:8 requires planning and is best saved for later. Go back and get runes from Snake/Swamp now. You are also strong enough to attempt shoals, assuming you can levitate as well as spider pit. Once you have 2 lair runes, come up with a V:8 strategy and clear it.

-AHMAD

[absolutego]

i don't think your skill level factors much in what order you tackle branches. if you've built your character poorly you'll suffer anywhere.

<Wenzell> elliptic[1/4]: Lair -> Orc -> D:19 -> Crypt -> V:7 -> D:27 -> get three runes -> Zot

that's good advice and i've settled into pretty much that routine for a while without thinking about it. i really do the lair branches last, only before vaults:8 (:5 now) and zot. all of the "easy" lair branches have mobility issues (snake has constriction, spiders are very fast, and the other two have lots of water), which is bad. there are exceptions, but it generally pays off to do D/V first.

[Jabberwocky]

*Now's the point you're getting stuck at, right? IF (big if!) you have poison resist, Snake:1 poses almost no challenge. Worst will be 2-3 anacondas and a viper or two (barring uniques). Snake:2-4 are similar, but you'll have to contend with some legit fighters and mages as well. Snake:5 you should avoid for now. This branch will help you level your skills and possibly find good items/consumables. DO NOT ATTEMPT without rPois!

Bad idea. Constriction hurts.

[Maximus]

So, I had tried to post something in this thread a few days ago but somehow forgot to actually submit it.

I got my first rune! and second!

Was playing a MiBe and, as it happened, he ended up wearing a +5 mottled dragon armor and was quite stealthy. I didn't put any exp into Armor at all.

I had a nice executioners axe of electrocution and another executioners axe of flaming that I used on hydras. I also had a nice battle axe with rElec, SInv, and some other stuff that I now can't remember, but was a great weapon to have in the Swamp.

I pretty much used my usual exploration pattern of 1) go down the main dungeon until it seems too dangerous, 2) Lair 1-8, 3) Orcish Mines 1-4.

Then, I decided to try the Spider's Nest and made it through all 5 levels and got my first rune without much of a problem. Then I think I went back and explored more of the main dungeon until it seemed too dangerous. Got the 2nd rune in the Swamp.

After that, I was kind of giddy and not thinking very well. I started going down the Vault and then entered a Ziggurat as soon as I had enough gold. That was a big mistake. I didn't die, but I came really close and wasn't able to travel very deep. Went back to the Vault and died somewhere in there, I can't remember the exact details.

Some things I did differently that I think made a big difference were:
1. Using consumables less conservatively.
2. Using my Trog abilities a lot more often.
3. Using wands generously.

I know, elementary stuff.

After I received the three weapons above (all before or during the Lair), I didn't really need anything else as far as weapons go. I had mastered Axes and Fighting up to 27, and was around 15 in both Dodging and Stealth. Being so stealthy actually hindered me at times because it made it more difficult to separate one or two baddies from a group to get them into melee range. On the other hand, centaur warriors and other ranged fighters were easy to sneak up on.

I thought I was probably on my way to a first win but actually got bored, lazy, and complacent. In hindsight, perhaps I should have saved this character and started another one until I was mentally ready to continue.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I think I'll allow myself to believe that I have graduated from Very Bad to just Bad.

[rebthor]

S
* Fighting, Axes/Polearms (whatever you're using), Unarmed Combat, Armor, and Dodging are all you'll need to level until Orc:4 is cleared. 8-12 levels in T&D is nice eventually but yeah.

-AHMAD

Why would you train unarmed? Waste of XP.

[BlackSheep]

Someone covered that for him in another thread.