the fecking abyss


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Swamp Slogger

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Joined: Friday, 18th May 2012, 22:42

Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 03:45

the fecking abyss

I feel like I'm missing something. I'm a decent player, I've ascended a bunch of times, usually with 15 runes, but it's seems like I get sent to the Abyss far, far too often and I almost always die (even when I'm pretty high level). This last time I had a great MiFi (level 17) and I was sent the Abyss by an Eldritch Tentacle (just before I could grab all the loot from a wizlab). I'm there for about a thousand turns and I'm hasted and I'm levitating and I'm running from a Hell Sentinel who hits me three times with hellfire, taking me from 157 HP to zero (laughing at my rF++ all the way). Also recently I've been taken out by a Lich and an Executioner. If I'm lucky enough to escape, I usually have horrible, game-killing mutations.

I really love this game, but I'm baffled by the Abyss. Why does it exist? At best it's tedious. I've read the standard advice and nothing seems to help. I understand how magic resistance works and I know which uniques can send you there. Is it significantly easier for casters to escape? (I usually player melee chars).

Someone please tell me it's going to be okay.
Last edited by Grimm on Saturday, 8th September 2012, 00:23, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: title edited for profanity
27 wins: CeHu(1), DgFE(1), DEEE(1), DEFE(2), DsBe(1), DsFE(1), DsFi(1), DsIE(1), HOFi(2), MiBe(1), MiFi(6), MiHe(1), MuFE(1), MuWz(1), OpFE(1), SpEE(1), SpEn(1), TeAE(1), TrMo(1), VpIE(1)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 05:01

Re: the fucking abyss

It's going to be okay.

When I started playing it seemed like I got abyssed all the time. An ogre mage would merely glance at me and there I was again. Then I'd get butchered. And then I'd come to the Tavern and post upset posts exactly like this one. I was unable to comprehend the old abyss hands when they went on about how trivial the Abyss is. I hated it.

Increased MR usage, increased familiarity with the Abyss, increased awareness of the importance of fleeing from monsters with banishment, increased knowledge of the game in general: these things lessened the bite, to the point that I no longer fear and hate it.

It does seem to me that casters have it easier there - Haste is a big plus for them. Hell sentinels are in my opinion overpowered. And there are frequent discussions of how to make the Abyss better. But until it is improved, you can come to terms with it.

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drag0n

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 05:09

Re: the fucking abyss

And hellfire ignores rF, so doesn't matter if you have +++rF
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 05:12

Re: the fucking abyss

I'd actually prefer killing a hell sentinel over running across the screen from it.

I hate the abyss, but its fairly rare to me. Like Grimm, I made posts about how terrible it was and how I felt like I always was sent there. It suddenly stopped. Not quite sure how, albeit it's probable that I don't even notice the tweaks I'm making.

Still though, when I do find myself in the abyss, it's kind of the low point of Crawl for me.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 05:26

Re: the fucking abyss

nordetsa wrote:And hellfire ignores rF, so doesn't matter if you have +++rF

Yeah, I know, I just thought it was ironic. It's rare for me to have rF++ that early in the game and it did me no good. Hellfire is supposed to be a late-game threat.
27 wins: CeHu(1), DgFE(1), DEEE(1), DEFE(2), DsBe(1), DsFE(1), DsFi(1), DsIE(1), HOFi(2), MiBe(1), MiFi(6), MiHe(1), MuFE(1), MuWz(1), OpFE(1), SpEE(1), SpEn(1), TeAE(1), TrMo(1), VpIE(1)

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 06:29

Re: the fucking abyss

I don't get abyssed very often, but the last time I did not only did I escape but I got the abyssal rune (and I was level 16, to boot!). :D
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Eringya's Employee

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 07:11

Re: the fucking abyss

Image
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

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SchwaWarrior

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 10:16

Re: the fucking abyss

@TehDruid: oh my god you're my hero for posting that pic ;///;

*ahem!* Yes I would think casters have a more forgiving time in the Abyss than straight melee in general. My latest Abyss journey was kind of tough since I didn't have Flight as a spell this time, and I got cornered by an Executioner and three Skeletal Knights. I used the Wand of Teleport, and the message said "You have a feeling this Teleport will take a while to kick in"... evidently, in the Abyss your Teleports are hindered and take like 10x as long to work, and the Blink spell has a high chance to fail when used as well. But I was JUST BARELY able to endure the assault of the Executioner and the other foes, by casting Phase Shift, Summon Scorpions a couple times, and backing away from him as best I could. The teleport finally kicked in when I was down to less than 10 HP, and I survived and was able to recover before continuing to explore the Abyss. Whew.

Later on, even though I already had the Abyssal Rune, I went back into the Abyss anyway, because A: I had almost died on D:27 (the final floor before Zot) from Draconians and felt like I needed to level up some more, and B: I was stressed out, and I needed to de-stress, so while I was exploring the Abyss to relax I also turned on some Super Metroid music. It worked wonders. I soon found ANOTHER Executioner, but this time I was a much higher level, and the moment I spotted it, ORB OF DESTRUCTION FIREEEE! Blasted the thing down to 1/3 of its life, followed up with two Mystic Blasts, it was BARELY ALIVE and zipped in to strike me twice (down to half my health already!), I tried to Blink away and it worked, called in the Demonic Horde, let it cut open an opening through the army of imps, and finally, one final beautifully aimed shot through the middle while it was distracted by other foes, goodbye first Tier-1 demon I've ever killed! Fucking. Glorious.

Eheh... so yeah, that was my most recent Abyss adventure. ^^ It gets rough down there, but as long as you're leveled high enough (typically the bare minimum of XL 12, not saying lower levels can't survive but you have to be real lucky), and Flight/Levitation Potions to get over lava along with Swiftness/Haste/Speed Potions to enhance your retreats will tremendously improve your chances; Teleport too, but not as much, since the Abyss specifically cripples teleportation actions just by being there.

If you can go toe to toe with Tier-3 demons and win, you're safe in the Abyss. The most common foes I find are Tiers 1 through 3 demons, Skeletons and Zombies in the D:15 through D:27 range (possibly the Vaults range too), Small and Large Abominations (the latter of which hit like a truck, but are extremely fragile defense-wise; my melee-caster hybrid could four or five-shot them with a Fire branded Long Blade, so straight melees at that same level as me should be able to one or two-shot them). The ones you want to be very careful of are the Nexequocs because of mutations; an Amulet could fix that, if you have one, otherwise either stay out of their LoS, or if possible try to run in if they haven't spotted you and mow them down before they can inflict a mutation, because they are actually pretty frail for a XL 16+ player. The other dangerous ones are Skeletal Knights simply because they're very heavy in defense as well as attack, not frail like most of the mid-level demons, and they come in groups; Efreets are more dangerous than Smoke Demons (unless you have a Freezing weapon) but rather rare, and occasionally you find packs of Slime Creatures too, same as always, pick off one at a time if you can possibly isolate them and not let them merge, otherwise just run away from them, Abyss has water and lava everywhere and you can usually use it to block foes like that from chasing you. Stay in control of your surroundings.

The most dreadful foes that only the most advanced characters should fight are of course the Tier 2 and 1 Demons, such as the aformentioned Executioners, along with the Fiend-class demons, and then viscious non-demons such as Liches and Ancient Liches (the normal Liches are somewhat frail and can be cleaved down by a powered-up character but they HIT YOU LIKE A BUS, especially if Ranged, particularly with Orb of Destruction; best to treat them like Nexequocs only with a near one-shot death attack instead of mutation attacks, and don't even think about fighting Ancient Liches unless your character is SPECIFICALLY made to combat unholy opponents, i.e. a The Shining One build). There are also Daevas (read: rouge angels, complete with Smiting attacks and double your speed), and their unholy counterparts, Profane Servitors (I never even knew these existed until today! Good thing it didn't spot me .__. It even radiated a BLACK Halo, it was really trippy). I managed to kill one Daeva in my last trip here, and I did it with summons to help distract him; for straight melee I don't know what the right strategy would be, other than potion up and let 'im have it and cross your fingers and be ready to heal or teleport out if you can spot well in advance that you won't win the exchange in hasted blows.

Keep in mind that I am not a Crawl expert like many of the blue-named Councelors here; most people would say you'd have a safer chance in running away from everything, and as a straight melee that might be more true than I'm imagining, but as for me, I've always preferred to fight it out and defeat every foe I even remotely can without dying. Even an underleveled visitor to Abyss will have things to kill, after all; the place is crawling with Tier-1 Imps for instance, and I reckon an XL 9 character can fight the Tier-2 demons at least decently, as long as he's not being swarmed and he takes them on one by one. The shape-changing walls can be used to your advantage to isolate foes you want isolated, or to block their advances completely, or another dirty trick is to lure a foe into the shallow water and then kill it while it faces its accuracy penalty for not being on land. But whatever your strategy, the #1 rule that I'm sure everyone can agree with me on is that practice makes perfect! The more trips to the Abyss you have, the better you'll get at handling it. I'm not saying get banished on purpose, but later in the main dungeon if you're leveled enough and you spot one of the manual enterances to the Abyss, why not give it a whirl, on your terms, after preparing for it, and give yourself an educational lesson in netherworld dungeoneering 101? :) Never give up!
--Schwa, your local muse forever and long-time High Elf fangirl ^_~
(also the master of Quadri-Birds)

TheProvocateur: I like how we're sprinting at a pile of greater mummies

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TehDruid
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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 13:55

Re: the fucking abyss

Well,TBH:
Image
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

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drag0n, Turgon

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 15:01

Re: the fucking abyss

drag0n wrote:I've read the standard advice and nothing seems to help.

I am going to give you some non-standard advice. I am assuming from this OP that you want it and you are going to read it, so I am going to take the time to write it.

Your problems surviving the abyss seem to be related to this:

I'm there for about a thousand turns and I'm hasted and I'm levitating and I'm running from a Hell Sentinel who hits me three times with hellfire


Even though some monsters in the abyss can hurt you from across the screen, new spawns are always created at the edge of your LOS - this includes the hell sentinel or the lich that summoned it. (Small exceptions involve terrain shifting and vaults, but I am only mentioning them so someone doesn't try to inform me about them.) Obviously, a monster cannot cast a spell and move at the same time - so what you must do, for every non-fast monster you do not want to deal with, is immediately move in the opposite direction once you see it. I suggest disabling autopickup while in the abyss, and if it helps you, I know of one player who uses force_more on any monster coming into view.
mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

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crate, wolloloo
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 16:35

Re: the fucking abyss

SchwaWarrior wrote:I soon found ANOTHER Executioner, but this time I was a much higher level, and the moment I spotted it, ORB OF DESTRUCTION FIREEEE! Blasted the thing down to 1/3 of its life, followed up with two Mystic Blasts, it was BARELY ALIVE and zipped in to strike me twice (down to half my health already!)

I see a problem there. You could've just fired another orb of destruction (don't forget about it, seriously) and it'd be dead without any of that nasty trouble you seem to be having there.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 139

Joined: Friday, 18th May 2012, 22:42

Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 16:43

Re: the fucking abyss

mikee wrote:
drag0n wrote:I've read the standard advice and nothing seems to help.

I am going to give you some non-standard advice. I am assuming from this OP that you want it and you are going to read it, so I am going to take the time to write it.


mikee wrote:Even though some monsters in the abyss can hurt you from across the screen, new spawns are always created at the edge of your LOS - this includes the hell sentinel or the lich that summoned it. (Small exceptions involve terrain shifting and vaults, but I am only mentioning them so someone doesn't try to inform me about them.) Obviously, a monster cannot cast a spell and move at the same time - so what you must do, for every non-fast monster you do not want to deal with, is immediately move in the opposite direction once you see it. I suggest disabling autopickup while in the abyss, and if it helps you, I know of one player who uses force_more on any monster coming into view.


I appreciate the two cents, but this seems like fairly standard advice (i.e., fly, you fools!). I seem to remember almost bumping into the Hell Sentinel, but maybe I already lost my mind at this point. Disabling auto-pickup is a good idea.

Is there a ttyrec for every game? How do I play it back? I've been playing on crawlus.somatika.net
27 wins: CeHu(1), DgFE(1), DEEE(1), DEFE(2), DsBe(1), DsFE(1), DsFi(1), DsIE(1), HOFi(2), MiBe(1), MiFi(6), MiHe(1), MuFE(1), MuWz(1), OpFE(1), SpEE(1), SpEn(1), TeAE(1), TrMo(1), VpIE(1)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 16:59

Re: the fucking abyss

drag0n wrote:I appreciate the two cents, but this seems like fairly standard advice (i.e., fly, you fools!). I seem to remember almost bumping into the Hell Sentinel, but maybe I already lost my mind at this point. Disabling auto-pickup is a good idea.


It's possible that you bumped into the hell sentinel when you went around a blind corner. In which case, you should be careful when approaching blind corners, which can kill you just as easily on D2 when it turns out there's an ogre or Sigmund coming the other way.

When feasible, you should try to stick to fairly open areas in the Abyss, so you have ample time to head the other direction when you see something nasty. The narrow twisty corridors look appealing from the perspective of somebody hoping to make a choke point with which to kill everything, but if you can't kill everything you're instead running the risk of getting sandwiched between a summoner and the crowd of skeletal warriors following behind you. Furthermore, whenever you take a step in the open areas you're exploring a large number of new tiles that could randomly have an exit, while in the twisty corridors you're exploring at most two or three tiles per step at most.

If you sight constricted terrain dead ahead, it's usually worth taking a hit or two from the crowd of imps and skeletal warriors trailing you in order to skirt loosely around the edge. That way you'll see anything lying in wait before you're already in melee.

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Bloax, drag0n
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 19:51

Re: the fucking abyss

Can we please keep titles of threads clean? Thanks.
(p.s. this is stupid some dev please make it not stupid) - minmay
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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 21:00

Re: the fucking abyss

Obligatory I'm gonna FUCKING swear whenever I FUCKING want to because I FUCKING want to FUCKING swear because I FUCKING NEED to swear because FUCK FUCK FUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKK

:P
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Spider Stomper

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Joined: Thursday, 5th January 2012, 08:32

Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 21:46

Re: the fucking abyss

Fuck is a necessary descriptor that differentiates it from the regular abyss. Which abyss? Oh, that one.

On-topic, there are elements about the abyss that I like. The shifting landscape is cool. The option to switch to lugonu is often interesting. The overwhelming sense of joy when you see the exit is certainly something.

I don't like that pre-lair banishment is near-guaranteed death, but I'm not sure if the problem is that banishment is a thing so early or that the abyss is so unforgiving to low level dudes.

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 21:58

yogaFLAME wrote: The overwhelming sense of joy when you see the exit is certainly something.

And the overwhelming sense of joy when you see the exit and get pulled into a different region of the abyss. Xom howls with laughter!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 6th September 2012, 22:32

Re: the fucking abyss

sardonica wrote:Can we please keep titles of threads clean? Thanks.

I invite discussion of this topic in a new thread, here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5621

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