Sheild + Ev

[iriswaters]

So, looking at the system info, I am trying to determine if there is any value at all to having both a high EV -and- a shield, at all. Actually I am having trouble figuring out what a shield does, really. I am aware that EV works as a target number for to hit rolls, though I am uncertain if it is EV, or twice EV, or 2dEV or... ? I am wondering if shield works basically the same way, you must get over a number based on SH to hit. If so, it would appear that there is little value in having both EV and a shield really, since only the higher of the 2 values will have an effect. (I have been goofing around with Ds, and have a decent char with Bony Plates).

[palin]

Actually first you check SH value for blocking, if it fails you check EV.
The truth is SH gets diminishing returns for every attack you withstand, EV check is the same for every attack.

[yogaFLAME]

Actually I am having trouble figuring out what a shield does, really.

It makes you equip a bad weapon.

[iriswaters]

Actually first you check SH value for blocking, if it fails you check EV.
The truth is SH gets diminishing returns for every attack you withstand, EV check is the same for every attack.

Thank you but... is it the same to-hit roll compared? Because if it is, then obviously only the higher one matters(unless it is SH that is higher and then only against many enemies). Basically it is sounding like shields just really aren't very good at all.

[iriswaters]

Huh. So with enemy to-hit being 18+[1.5 or 2.5]*HD, it feels like SH stats below, like, 20 are pretty much useless even against the weakest of enemies...?

[Deimos]

I know that's certainly not true, albeit I have no idea why. Even with only a buckler I find myself blocking a lot of damage.

[KoboldLord]

The main factor you're missing is that enemy to-hit is also rolled. The number mentioned is the maximum value of the roll, but on average the enemy will roll roughly half that much and occasionally the enemy will completely blow the roll.

[iriswaters]

No, I am accounting for that. The average roll for the shield is much, much lower than the average roll for the opponent's attack, meaning well under 50% of attacks will be blocked, pretty universally. :/

[BlackSheep]

That's for small shields, and that's as it should be. With good skill and stats using a large shield, you can easily attain 50 SH.

[KoboldLord]

50% damage reduction is an insane expectation for something that you've invested almost nothing into. Eliminating the spellcasting penalty for a buckler requires approximately one lousy ogre's worth of xp, and it isn't like a spellcaster is likely to be using that off-hand for anything else.

[sardonica]

My basic rule on shields is bucklers for casters. Otherwise nope.

[palin]

My basic rule on shields is bucklers for casters. Otherwise nope.

It also depends on play style. Casters that sometimes go on melee (e.g. summoner-type who aid summons in combat) benefit from shields more because they're frail and they rarely get surrounded.
Of course pure melee should prefer double handed weapons for maximum damage.

[yogaFLAME]

My basic rule on shields is bucklers for casters. Otherwise nope.

Add stabbers to that and it's pretty much spot on.

[Petro]

Nobody is going to play devil's advocate?

Demonspawn are pretty solid with them, since they get a bonus to the best one handed weapons already and can get a lot of intrinsic resists that help negate unblockable damage like hellfire and torment. In fact I love taking shields on all my melee classes, with the understanding that they're going to be garbage in the extended endgame.

[iriswaters]

50% damage reduction is an insane expectation for something that you've invested almost nothing into. Eliminating the spellcasting penalty for a buckler requires approximately one lousy ogre's worth of xp, and it isn't like a spellcaster is likely to be using that off-hand for anything else.

Actually I was going with the wiki's quote(found the right page that has the above info: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... alculation ) of 'average roll of 11 with a large shield and 27 shield skill', and a 15/15 str/dex. Not exactly something one has invested nothing in. That ends up less than 50% -against lvl 1 monsters-. Nevermind against what you'll face by the time you have a 27 shield skill...

[iriswaters]

I guess I'd just been hoping there was a way to make shield a viable thing in general. I haven't had much issue with hordes of weak enemies(I'm having fun with hybrids), so the step-down doesn't bother me so much as the fact that the shield doesn't seem to do much of anything. Blocking one hit in 10 isn't too exciting. Shrug. Don't mind me, I'm just system poking, not actually complaining. Other than: It seems the consensus is that they aren't useful at all except maybe bucklers for casters, which seems a shame as they are a whole game element that seems to be useless.

[BlackSheep]

They're not considered useful in the post-end game content because the biggest risks there can't be blocked: torment and hellfire. That has nothing to do with the mathematics of blocking melee and ranged attacks.

[Petro]

I wouldn't say useless. Their block chance is hardly negligible and on top of it they are another slot for artifact bonuses. Crawlers hate them for two major reason.

A. If you know how to beat every monster they're mostly just slowing you down.
B. They can't block unblockable damage.

I'd say for beginners they are fine. Have you memorized every monster? Do you spend a lot of time in pan getting perma-tormented? I don't and I've been playing for a quite a while. For a 3-5 rune ascension shields are A-OK.

[Galefury]

A large shield with 27 shields skill blocks lots of melee and projectile attacks. In fact it will shut them down almost completely unless you get surrounded, at which point the diminishing returns kick in. The problem is, those attacks are usually not the main thing you worry about at that point, and 27 shields is a gigantic investment. Plus you might want that offhand for something else.

Just as a comparison point for the investment required: you could have gotten 27 air or earth instead and be casting tornado or shatter.

[Deimos]

Say you're challenging yourself into running Trog in extended and have nothing else to put xp in. Disregarding the xp investment, is 1h+shield better then 2h?

[One-Eyed Jack]

No except if you're a halfling or something

[omegasean]

both my wins have been evasion / shield / blessed trishula wielding merfolks !

it is a viable strategy.

Maybe for extended game a shield doesn't help much, but early / mid game shields are great.

[Petro]

Say you're challenging yourself into running Trog in extended and have nothing else to put xp in. Disregarding the xp investment, is 1h+shield better then 2h?

Different, you have significantly lower damage output but you'll be much tougher, especially with a good shield ego (resistance, reflection). It lends itself to a much more cautious play style. In extended it's going to get worse as you go on. You need superior damage in order to get in and out quickly, before hell's mystic force or pan's torment ends you.

[Deimos]

That's... quite sad. The fact that it'd be preferable not to use shields even if you get 27 shields for free is just terrible... oh well, thanks for answering.

[crate]

If you're following Trog then by the time you get to extended you have every skill you care about for the entire game at a level that is plenty good enough, because you are under Trog and there just are not very many useful skills under Trog, and there is a lot of xp in a 3 rune game.

27 shields from turn 0 would make one-hander plus Trog very strong for a 3 rune game.

[KoboldLord]

Actually I was going with the wiki's quote(found the right page that has the above info: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... alculation ) of 'average roll of 11 with a large shield and 27 shield skill', and a 15/15 str/dex. Not exactly something one has invested nothing in. That ends up less than 50% -against lvl 1 monsters-. Nevermind against what you'll face by the time you have a 27 shield skill...

Pick one:
A: The Wiki sucks, and you should take what it says with a grain of salt.
B: That article is poorly written, since your interpretation doesn't match what happens in an actual game your interpretation has probably been misled at some point.

I just tried in wizmode, and a human fighter with 18 str and 13 dex (artificially low, because I couldn't be bothered to change the XL1 starting stats) blocked 19 out of 30 attacks by a stone giant. That's not terrible, especially since in a normal game you'd actually be hitting back.

[Southpaw]

Shields actually block quite a lot of damage (see KoboldLord's example above), especially if you're worrying about proper positioning and making sure you don't get surrounded. The problem is that if you're worrying about proper positioning and ensuring you don't get surrounded you probably aren't taking enough damage to care about if some of it is blocked anyways.