HuWr Strategy

[Utis]

I've been playing human warpers, mostly. I'm also throwing in a couple of Skalds, mostly human, merfolk and one centaur. But I tend to lose interest in them. For some reason, it is the HuWr that fascinates me.

I can get them to the temple on a regular basis, and, if I chose Okawaru, also to the Lair. But I seem to hit a glass ceiling around then. Moreover, I can't seem to get any warper-specific strategies off the ground.

Essentially, I'm playing them as gladiators + shroud spell. I train polearms to 3, then stealth to 3 (because that seems to increase survivability a little bit), then polearms to min delay (12 or 14). But what then?

What I'd like to do is: obtain a ranged attack (either bows or magic), train translocations and charms high enough to get control teleport usable and maybe portal of golubria reliable, then use blink to keep my distance while using ranged attacks.

However, it takes AGES to train the weapon skill. By the time I have it, monsters have become significantly more dangerous. Without Oka's heroism, I couldn't get to Lair. Oka is fine, but I'd also like to try Kiku and Nemelex -- the latter, to my mind, very much fitting with the warper theme.

I wonder: should I switch to shord blades, although they're not recommended, which I have to train only to 10? Or should I switch to bows as my primary means of killing as soon as I find one and have ~100 arrows, i.e. before I have a melee skill at min delay?

[cerebovssquire]

Essentially, I'm playing them as gladiators + shroud spell. I train polearms to 3, then stealth to 3 (because that seems to increase survivability a little bit), then polearms to min delay (12 or 14). But what then?

What I'd like to do is: obtain a ranged attack (either bows or magic), train translocations and charms high enough to get control teleport usable and maybe portal of golubria reliable, then use blink to keep my distance while using ranged attacks.

However, it takes AGES to train the weapon skill. By the time I have it, monsters have become significantly more dangerous. Without Oka's heroism, I couldn't get to Lair. Oka is fine, but I'd also like to try Kiku and Nemelex -- the latter, to my mind, very much fitting with the warper theme.

I wonder: should I switch to shord blades, although they're not recommended, which I have to train only to 10? Or should I switch to bows as my primary means of killing as soon as I find one and have ~100 arrows, i.e. before I have a melee skill at min delay?

Do not train Stealth. Warpers have a multitude of escape tools, but a hard time killing things. You need to solve this problem first.
Kiku is a very fitting choice for Wr. Pain brands are great for any melee/Necromancy hybrid, and low-level Necromancy spells are very useful. One specific Kiku tip I can give is: if you get Corpse Rot, use it a lot in combination with corpse gifting (* ability). It kills monsters quickly and slows them in addition, basically curare clouds. When you get Kiku's first book, switch from training your weapon skill to training Necromancy.
Also, a spear is a nice Kiku weapon, since it has delay 5 when at minimal delay (12 skill), allowing very fast pain attacks.

Once you have a weapon at min delay (12 skill), some dodging (20 EV is good), some necromancy (12ish) and some fighting (10ish), get enough tloc/charms to use control teleport (probably around late lair).

[crate]

I wonder: should I switch to shord blades, although they're not recommended, which I have to train only to 10?

A spear is a short sword with reaching. Short swords are only better for stabbing.

[Lasty]

Also, spears don't cut off hydra heads. Flaming spears can't destroy hydra heads, and cursed spears don't butcher, tho'. . .

[Utis]

Do not train Stealth. Warpers have a multitude of escape tools, but a hard time killing things. [...]
Kiku is a very fitting choice for Wr.

Thank you very much! Especially for the advice on skills. One thing I'm noticing is that not training stealth at all changes the way I can progress in the dungeon, as travel exclusions become worthless, since most monsters are awake, alert and intent on doing me harm as soon as they come in my LoS. I'll have to get used to this. It is tempting, though, to use Shroud and Blink to "park" some dangerous equal-speed meleers on the level above. I'll have to see.

I'm positive now that there must be a humour module in the game's source code. The one that spawns centaur bardings only when you're not a centaur, and platemail only when you're a caster. I believe this module probably scans the forums. Because ever since I decided to follow the Kiku strategy, I ALWAYS keep finding Oka and Nemelex altars on dlvl 2 or 3. Is Nemelex actually viable with low evocation skill? How would evocation fit into the skill strategy? (I half-seriously hope that asking this question stops the humour-module from playing tricks on me ...)

[cerebovssquire]

An important part of Crawl strategy is to be flexible. Assuming that the altars to Okawaru and Kikubaaqudgha spawn in the Temple, Kikubaaqudgha is the better choice. Assuming that the former is on D:2, but the latter in the Temple... I'd go for Okawaru. You will probably have several stars of piety by Temple time, and early gifts! Don't decide "I must go Kiku" but "I will go Kiku if I don't get an early altar." It's similar to the way that you shouldn't decide "I'll go long blades", but instead "I'll go long blades but if I get a D:2 demon whip I'll go maces."

Nemelex is fine by the way. Just be aware of the risk that low-Evocations summoning decks pose, and prefer destruction at low levels of the skill. Probably you would want to get some weapon skill first (say 8?) then some Evocations (5-6 maybe?) then weapon to 12, then some Dodging (17-20 EV probably), then some more Evocations, then some Fighting (8-10ish).

[mikee]

You don't need evo for nemelex until somewhere in lair... you're most likely going to have 1 or 0 decks most of this time.

This is the real reason that I think nemelex is challenging for new players; he doesn't actually make you any stronger early on.

[zogre]

You don't need evo for nemelex until somewhere in lair... you're most likely going to have 1 or 0 decks most of this time.

This is the real reason that I think nemelex is challenging for new players; he doesn't actually make you any stronger early on.

I take this to mean that you don't think blowing food and potions/wands you don't immediately need on getting a Deck of Wonders, then drawing for Experience isn't an optimal strategy? I should have known better, that strategy came from the wiki

[cerebovssquire]

You are risking a horrible death by doing that (just look at other Wonders card effects). Games where you draw Experience are easier than others, but the strategy is highly unreliable. Basically it actually might help you win a game after several attempts and deaths, but it is not something you would ever want to do on a streak.

[Utis]

You are risking a horrible death by doing that (just look at other Wonders card effects). Games where you draw Experience are easier than others, but the strategy is highly unreliable. Basically it actually might help you win a game after several attempts and deaths, but it is not something you would ever want to do on a streak.

Meh. I did this when I found said Nemelex altar, because I thought it is a viable strategy. I got lucky and achieved cTele from the Helix card. But knowing this was pure luck is unsatisfying, so I quit this char.

I want a t-shirt "I ♥ Kikubaaqudgha". Lethal infusion is extremely helpful. Should I prioritize the order in which I learn the other spells?

One thing I find difficult, ironically, is how to cope with lucky finds. Shortly after receiving Kiku's first gift, one HuWr of mine found a book containing evaporate+fulsome, and another one a book of Minor Magic. (Both still alive.) With the first one, I got out of my way to train evaporate. But I got a feeling that I was extremely lucky in that I found an early gnoll castle of sorts, which provided the necessary XP. With the second one, I'm unsure what to do. I know, Mephitic is great, but I'm still struggling getting Polearms and Necromancy off the ground.

Does somebody know a tty-record of an experienced player playing a human melee type? I'd love to watch how they take the early dungeon.

[Utis]

Cerebovssquire, reading the resurrected thread about the wiki, I happened on your diary of a MuWr at http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... mmy_Warper

This is an extremely interesting read in itself, but especially the very first paragraph sticks out for me, because it concerns two points about which I have been thinking all the time:

I start training Polearms for my spear, but a kobold I kill drops a whip of venom so I promptly swap to Maces&Flails. It helps me kill a hobgoblin in plate armour - +2 plate armour, as it turns out, which I put on. Upon reaching level 3 I raise STR from 14 to 15. I'll eventually need 18 to negate extra penalties for the plate.

1. I have been thinking about disregarding shroud in favour of heavier armour -- essentially turning the Wr into a Fi with a guarranteed book of spatial translocations --, but I haven't done it until now. I find it particularly interesting that you don the plate despite the penalty ... Where would be the breaking point, i.e. would a +0 chain mail, for instance, already be good enough to abandon shroud?

2. In my latest attempts, I have chosen short blades, because I fancied that a) the chance to find a branded weapon early is much higher, and this would make my pre-temple life much easier and b) with the Kiku strategy speed would matter more than weapon base damage, anyways (or so I have come to believe ...). However, if switching the weapon category already at D1 is an option, there is no point in not going for spears, I assume? The advice to not train stealth at all (which would help me a little in dealing with orc bands) has led me to believe that at this point already 2 or 3 skill levels are way to valuable. Certainly, switching is not a good idea just at any point in the early game and not for any brand. Any rough guidelines which brands are worth it and up to what point in training one's starting weapon?

(To explain the background of my questions: I'm trying to go at this rather methodically. I did manage to get a couple of characters to the lair, including some HuWrs. At this point, I tend to worry that I depended too much on luck and start again with another character. My save file directory is slowly filling with XL 9-12 chars, which will probably come in handy when I take on the next stage. I think, I can really enjoy this next stage only once I more or less mastered the part before that. I seem to be slowly acquiring some not too bad habits, though. I tried a couple of DrTr, just for a change, and they felt extremely powerfull, steam rolling through the early dungeon, until they died due to carelessness at a point which I haven't reached with my HuWrs and thus had no habits acquired.)