Attributes for transmuter?

[pubby]

What attributes are most important to raise for transmuter?

Str is good because it provides good bonuses to statue/dragon form.
Int is good because you can cast spells easier.
Dex is good because EV is nice.

But which is most important?

[zogre]

The advice I've always read is that if you intend to cast spells as your primary object, then Int is far and away the most important. I've seen cogent arguments for both Str and Dex.

A transmuter is a melee hybrid though, my primary damage comes from unarmed attacks while transformed unless I've got lucky with a weapon brand in the early game. The way I approach it is to raise Int & Spellcasting when my primary transformation (spider or ice form until I get statue or dragon) still costs me food, then Str and Dex equally.

I have an unnatural obsession with getting hunger costs to zero, though so YMMV

Henzell says:
Casting a spell lowers your nutrition by an amount varying with the spell's level: (1) 50, (2) 95, (3) 160, (4) 250, (5) 350, (6) 550, (7) 700, (8) 860, (9) 1000. This amount is lowered by the product of your Intelligence and Spellcasting.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Reducing food costs is generally less important than the power and (especially) success boosts that int gives you.

The higher your int is, the less xp you need to put in spellcasting schools.

[zogre]

Oh, I certainly don't argue with you on that point. I recognize that my worry about hunger costs is a bit silly, but <shrug> irrational worries are not always subject to soothing by rational argument.

[pubby]

int

The advice I've always read is that if you intend to cast spells as your primary object, then Int is far and away the most important. I've seen cogent arguments for both Str and Dex.

What about for Octopodes?

They can just wear a ring of wizardry all the time and spellpower doesn't mean much if all they're casting is transmutations, charms, and tloc.

[crate]

If you have to ask which stat to take you probably should take int.

There are situations where dex is better but if you know enough about what the stats do you can figure those out on your own. Until then just take int.

[mageykun]

Stat growth for dummies.

Spoiler: show

(Obvious disclaimers about oversimplification and my making things up apply).

[cerebovssquire]

there is no such thing as a cripplingly low carrying capacity, only a stuffed inventory

[mageykun]

I was thinking of insufficient capacity to carry sufficient ammo or decks if you're playing ranged, or Nemelex, but yeah.

[pubby]

there is no such thing as a cripplingly low carrying capacity, only a stuffed inventory

5 strength on an hunter is pretty crippling.

[cerebovssquire]

Debatable... I think early on you won't need so many arrows/whatever and later on you will probably have Flight or boots of lev anyway, but granted, that isn't guaranteed. I definitely think it isn't going to happen with decks, there 4-5 are really enough. My post wasn't 100% serious of course

[smock]

Apart from heavy armor, strength might be needed for carrying stuff (ammo or decks, but mostly because it's inconvenient to manage inventory for weight), to get full damage from slings (15 should be enough) or bows (13 should be enough), or to reach minimum delay on crossbows. I could see a transmuter that intends to kill things with arrows raise Str to 13.

Dex helps reach min delay for slings and bows. And of course it helps dodging.

I can see raising str or dex on a transmuter with good spellcasting and transmutations aptitudes, like SE, but that decided to use a longbow. Longbows are way way OP (in the last version of trunk I played). Not that a transmuter start is the easiest way to use a longbow. But assuming a 3-rune game and a wand of hasting or sufficient potions of speed I think the extra int might not be needed. If you top out at blade hands, who cares about the extra int? You only need, what, 8 tmut for blade hands?

[cerebovssquire]

Beastly Appendage - crap
Spider Form - no weapons
Ice Form - no weapons
Blade Hands - no weapons
Statue Form - *melee* bonus damage, speed loss
Dragon Form - no weapons
Necromutation - useless before extended

yeah... bow's gonna be hard, just S2S these arrows

[smock]

I guess I play transmuters differently than you. I don't walk around in a form all the time. Instead, I cast the spell just before I melee (or just before I need it otherwise for EV or resists or whatnot). That way it matters less you can't use weapons in the form. It takes 5 aut to swap away from a launcher. It takes 10 aut to transform. So, 5 fewer aut to shoot things than a build that uses a weapon, but that seems like small change. I guess I'm missing the whole point about forms not using weapons.

I could see a transmuter that intends to kill things with arrows

I couldn't.

So, what do good transmuters do while waiting for that ettin to close to melee range? Conjurations? Summon things? Zap wands? Cast many many buffs?

[rchandra]

I tried that sort of character for a bit, but I think it's too much xp required to train UC / transmutations and bows to effective levels, as they both want high levels. Something like staff + bow makes it much easier to develop the rest of your character (defenses, invocations, fighting...).

Javelins/wands and many many buffs seem like reasonable options for the transmuter.

[pratamawirya]

Using ranged weapons as a transmuter is somewhat sub-optimal. Your fists already deal crazy damage, and training magic skills to use some utility spells is better than training bow/crossbow/sling. Plus you'd obviously want UC and fighting, and perhaps dodging too. When will you get the xp to make your launchers worthwhile?

[smock]

The point really is that fists don't deal any damage until you are next to the monster: You have 50-70 aut before you need to take a form and with bows trained to even just 12 most things are dead before then. Most things in crawl melee, so taking them down before they are in melee range really helps.

I usually start the transition in the mid-to-late game once I've found a longbow and getting 10 level in bows is no big deal. Say, 15UC first. Of course more XP in UC is always very useful (up to level 25?) but sheesh it sucks to sit and wait for monsters to close on you. Bows are OP in trunk so usually it's worth getting them to min delay before maxing out UC.

Bows are reusable damage, unlike wands. They require only one skill, whereas conjurations might require at least some investment in several -- spellcasting, conjurations, and an element or perhaps two. Bows probably are not right for a tmut of sif or makhleb but they work very well with Okawaru.

But basically the reason is the ranged is broken right now. Longbows are like bardiches that reach all the way across LOS but don't require 20 skill levels to be good.

[mikee]

So, what do good transmuters do while waiting for that ettin to close to melee range? Conjurations? Summon things? Zap wands? Cast many many buffs?

They wield a blowgun and then wait until it is one tile away, and then they shoot it with curare. Then, they back up once, cast blade hands, and hit it.