Exploring the Dungeon


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 14:39

Exploring the Dungeon

I've been playing a lot of humans lately, mostly Warpers, Skalds, a couple of gladiators and fighters. They all die shortly before or after the temple, mostly, but I really enjoy the feeling of tension I have with these.

But I feel, that with builds like these, the tactics of moving in and exploring the dungeon levels really matter. How do more experienced and better players go about it?

  • Do you use autoexplore? I really like the idea of it, but I find that it leaves me too often with a too vulnerable route of retreat, so I'm Shift-DIR'ing my way around.
  • Do you seek cover constantly, in case you encounter a ranged attacker, or do you try make sure that you spot a dangerous melee monster in advance?
  • How far do you stay away from "the dark". I mean: for instance, if a rat comes into line of sight from an unexplored area: do you retreat to lure it into known territory. Or is it enough to stay put, throw daggers at it and wait for it to come?
  • Is it worthwile to invest 2-3 ranks into stealth at the beginning, so that not absolutely every monster wakes up as soon as it comes into LoS, so that there's actually a chance to put a travel exclusion on the very dangerous ones?
  • Do you go down every stairs that you encounter? Currently I'm doing this: when I find stairs down, I clear the adjacent area around it. Then I go downstairs and, again, clear the adjacent area. The idea is to have a moderately safe space for retreat on either level. But it does mean that I'm basically exploring two (or rather 1.5) levels at a time. Is this a good idea?
"... while we / Unburden'd crawl toward death." -- King Lear I,1
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 15:35

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

Do you use autoexplore?

No, but I'm unusual in my distaste for using the automatic tools. Many of the better players use it just fine. Heck, even the not so better ones do. :p

That said there are, technically speaking, weaknesses to it. Manual explore lets you move a little smarter- mostly in terms of controlling encounters, keeping lines of retreat close by, easily accessible and open, not leaving unexplored branch points behind you open so you can be cut off, etc. Recognizing vaults. If you want to worry about these kinds of things, it doesn't hurt.

Cover constantly?

As is reasonable. Sometimes closing to melee is actually a better option than retreating to cover. And cover is also useful against melee opponents, since you can control how many foes you face at a time. Corners and corridors are your friends.

the dark

It's usually a better idea to let things come to you, than to advance, expand your LOS, and potentially find more monsters. Going around a corner or dagger pelting optional, depending on the situation. For popcorn like a rat though, it's not really a problem to walk out and smoosh it.

Stabbing is kind of an interesting case, as you have to close to the unknown in order to kill things. And roles that kill things at range can just kill at range, no waiting or advancement required.

Stealth?

How much you should invest in on stealth, if at all, really varies depending on your race and build. At the extremes- a heavy armour bruiser tank shouldn't bother, while spriggan nearly everythings should pick up stealth, just because it's cheap and awesome.

stairs

The problem with "stair dipping" as you go is you may set off portal timers and miss an opportunity. But the advantage of knowing where all 3 upstairs on a new floor are is you know where all the escape routes are (even if you don't always know the path to them).

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 16:24

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

I do stairs the opposite way to avoid triggering timers; I explore UP all the stairs on a level. And usually all the trap doors, after I have cleared the level. Just in case.

Disclaimer: I have never won, best I've done was die with 3 runes, but I usually make it to or just past Lair.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 17:55

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

christhawk wrote:I do stairs the opposite way to avoid triggering timers; I explore UP all the stairs on a level. And usually all the trap doors, after I have cleared the level. Just in case.


When you explore up, always go down a stair you haven't yet.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 18:16

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

Off topic: I just had a very promising HuWr just die. Everything went smoothely, not a single just-barely-escaping-death situation, despite some very dangerous uniques, some very nice spellbooks -- and suddenly, on a mostly explored level, Psyche pops up. I sense the danger immediately, read a scroll of blinking, but too late: I get blasted on the very steps to the upper level. :(

I forgot about those timers. Hmm ... But I'm not sure that I can afford any risks with those human light melee types.

With regard to stealth: I noticed that with just 2 levels in it (and leather armour), many or most monsters remain asleep, when they get into LoS. So I started to train it immediately to 2, as soon as I get to 3 in my weapon skill. But that doesn't seem to be enough for uniques like Sigmund. Is it worth it, to get it, say, to 4 at a little later time, e. g. after getting the weapon skill to 8?
"... while we / Unburden'd crawl toward death." -- King Lear I,1
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 18:34

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

Utis wrote:I forgot about those timers. Hmm ... But I'm not sure that I can afford any risks with those human light melee types.

I used the same strategy for some time but no more. Loosing the opportunity of visiting reasonably easy portals where you can grab XP and stuff, just because you started the timer a few hundred turns before actually exploring the level (and finding the portal) is frustrating.

Also, some unfortunate experiments proved that retreating downstairs in an unexplored level can lead you to a cruel death. Just imagine the first foe you'll meet may be more dangerous than the one you leaved, he may have friends aside. You cannot safely retreat in unexplored areas of the new level because you will, believe me, you definitely will end trapped in a corridor with bloodthirsty monsters running to you from each end, or in an open space room filled with orcs, priests and wizards. And of course, you can neither safely retreat upstairs since you've just left a frustrated Sigmund waiting for you with his scythe. BTW, this tactics just ends to : from Charybe to Scylla (also known as the "Swapping the doom" Delusion)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 19:19

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

Utis wrote:Off topic: I just had a very promising HuWr just die. Everything went smoothely, not a single just-barely-escaping-death situation, despite some very dangerous uniques, some very nice spellbooks -- and suddenly, on a mostly explored level, Psyche pops up. I sense the danger immediately, read a scroll of blinking, but too late: I get blasted on the very steps to the upper level. :(

I forgot about those timers. Hmm ... But I'm not sure that I can afford any risks with those human light melee types.

With regard to stealth: I noticed that with just 2 levels in it (and leather armour), many or most monsters remain asleep, when they get into LoS. So I started to train it immediately to 2, as soon as I get to 3 in my weapon skill. But that doesn't seem to be enough for uniques like Sigmund. Is it worth it, to get it, say, to 4 at a little later time, e. g. after getting the weapon skill to 8?


I like to take it to 10 and then turn it off.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 19:54

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

Herode2 wrote:
Utis wrote:I forgot about those timers. Hmm ... But I'm not sure that I can afford any risks with those human light melee types.

I used the same strategy for some time but no more. Loosing the opportunity of visiting reasonably easy portals where you can grab XP and stuff, just because you started the timer a few hundred turns before actually exploring the level (and finding the portal) is frustrating.


Hmmmm. I did have HuSk once who gained a lot by clearing some tomb thingie with mummies ... How common are these portals? Is it worth to count on them? (My chance of finding one is not zero, though, since I don't just dip downstairs. I'm always exploring the immediate surroundings.)

I'm still unconvinced about the other point. Surely a high probability of finding another doom is better than certain doom? Besides, it's not just Sigmund, it's more often than not orc priest out in the open, who smites me into the last third of my health. Him, I want to find near the stairs when I go up, buffed and rested.
"... while we / Unburden'd crawl toward death." -- King Lear I,1

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2012, 21:00

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

I generally don't stair-dip. It can be very dangerous, and I haven't really found much benefit from knowing where the other staircases are.

Stair-dipping is dangerous because normally when you enter a just-generated level every monster on it is asleep. If you come down right next to a hydra or an ettin, you at least have a chance to take an action before it starts eviscerating you, because it has to wake up before it can do anything. If you've already woken up everything on the level, though, it might be perfectly awake and waiting right next to the second stairwell you dip. Along with a half dozen ugly things to surround you and cut off your escape route. Exploring levels horizontally is less likely to put you right in the middle of an ambush, because what kind of fool lets a half dozen hostile monsters follow them while going around blind corners?

Knowing where the other staircases are doesn't much help either. Fleeing into the black is much more likely to make things worse than it is to help, even if it totally looks like that other stairwell is close by. There isn't even a guarantee that both stairwells are in the same connected bubble. Fleeing for a distant stairwell you dipped previously is an excellent way of making sure that every dangerous monster on the entire level ends up fighting you all at once.

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 9th August 2012, 03:43

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

I do like to stair dip when they are close together, otherwise it's just a wast of turn/time for a questionable benefit ratio.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 9th August 2012, 06:44

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

Perhaps you'd be best suited by going with stronger species/background combos. You sound new and need to develop the proper instincts. It's quite likely you could be dying to packs of orcs or ogres if you're unfamiliar with their capabilities.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 9th August 2012, 21:58

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

[*]Do you use autoexplore?

Early on I do, later on I tend to do so less.

[*] Do you seek cover constantly, in case you encounter a ranged attacker, or do you try make sure that you spot a dangerous melee monster in advance?

I find little good comes from moving in cover. Most dangerous ranged monsters are likely moving faster then you (Centaur) while spells like Repel/Deflect missiles will trivialize them. Of course, If I can move next to cover, then I'll try to do that.

[*] How far do you stay away from "the dark". I mean: for instance, if a rat comes into line of sight from an unexplored area: do you retreat to lure it into known territory. Or is it enough to stay put, throw daggers at it and wait for it to come?

Completely circumstantial to what I find. With a weak enemy like a rat I will likely steamroll them. Unless in an open room or area where they might have friends, it is unlikely they will pose much of a hazard, and if they do have friends then fleeing from them is likely not going to be too difficult.

Now, Assuming the Enemy is Dangerous in anyway - With Sleeping Enemies I will tend to leave them alone before circling around into the Black to reveal as much around them as possible. With Enemies that haven't noticed me, I may attempt to stay out of sight and come back to fight them later. If they do notice me, then depending on the surroundings I may stand or fight or retreat to known areas.

Using a Sleeping Sigmund as example:
I open a door and lo and behold I see a Sleeping Sigmund. I close door, and exclude it. I then walk around in the area around Sigmund to uncover as much of the black as i can. Depending on how much of an advantage I might have or how strong my character is, I may choose to fight him.


[*] Is it worthwile to invest 2-3 ranks into stealth at the beginning, so that not absolutely every monster wakes up as soon as it comes into LoS, so that there's actually a chance to put a travel exclusion on the very dangerous ones?

Unless you are a species with poor stealth or you plan on using Plate Armor or something else that will hamper your Stealth (like really loud spells) then you should invest in Stealth until you get 2 or 3 ranks.Just remember to turn it off.

[*] Do you go down every stairs that you encounter? Currently I'm doing this: when I find stairs down, I clear the adjacent area around it. Then I go downstairs and, again, clear the adjacent area. The idea is to have a moderately safe space for retreat on either level. But it does mean that I'm basically exploring two (or rather 1.5) levels at a time. Is this a good idea?

While I may take a downstairs before clearing a level, I only do so when it is strategic to do so - ie, Sigmund is on the level, Temple Diving, Orcish Mines where you aren't clearing the full level but you can't see the rest of it, etc.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th August 2012, 00:46

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

Davion Fuxa wrote:[
I open a door and lo and behold I see a Sleeping Sigmund. I close door, and excl...



The door creaks loudly.

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff...
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 10th August 2012, 01:10

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

XuaXua wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:[
I open a door and lo and behold I see a Sleeping Sigmund. I close door, and excl...



The door creaks loudly.

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff...


One of the few situations where descending down a staircase is a gamble in your favor.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 10th August 2012, 12:50

Re: Exploring the Dungeon

At least you got the door closed so that he's not immediately blasting you. And you know which direction to run.
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