ideal spell set?

[some12fat2move]

I've gotten quite fond of DEWz recently, haven't won with any yet but gotten runes with a lot of them and they seem to make very effective characters. But one of the big problems I have with them is spell slots. Around the point where I've cleared the Lair and the Orcish Mines, I've accumulated lots of spellbooks with lots of wonderful spells and I have to do some narrowing down to get the best of the best. But I'm having difficulty deciding on what exactly is the best combination of spells for a Deep Elf.

EDIT - thanks to all the advice and thinking I have settled on the following set of spells as the ideal:

Summon Butterflies (1)
Apportation (1)
Blink (2)
Stoneskin (2)
Swiftness (2)
Sublimation of Blood (2)
Flight (3)
Deflect Missiles (6)
Haste (6)
Controlled Blink (7)
Ring of Flames (7)
Death's Door (8)
Necromutation (8)
Lehudib's Crystal Spear (8)
Tornado (9)
Fire Storm (9)

Thanks again for all your suggestions!

[FalconNL]

Another DEWz fan here. I'm not what you'd call a very experienced player: I've won once (a DEWz 4-runer) and have a DEWz 15-runer in progress (currently at 5 runes). Here's what I typically go for:

Blink (2). To put some distance between me and something that somehow managed to get into melee range.
Swiftness (2). Very useful for running away from enemies.
Mephitic Cloud (3). The main problem of wizards in the early game is that barring finding books there's no decent damage spell between magic dart and mystic blast. Mephitic Cloud solves this problem by making your opponents wander around like idiots while you ping them to death. Fantastically useful until you get fire storm online. At that point it can safely be forgotten, as enemies will become more resistant to it.
Flight (3). Highly useful in the Abyss. Possibly useful in the Hell branches (haven't been there yet). Saves having to carry around a levitation source and removes the need for controlled flight.
Fireball (5). Never misses, area damage, and I already know the skill due to fire storm. Used against (small groups of) non-fire resistant easy enemies.
Haste (6). Use it before going down stairs. Use it against tough uniques. Quite possibly the best spell save for fire storm.
Demonic Horde (6). Similar to summon butterflies, except they don't run off, which means they protect you for longer, they have some attack power and occasionally they'll even raise some zombies for you.
Controlled Blink (7). Brilliant for escaping and getting past things such as grates and foul fountains.
Lehudib's Crystal Spear (8). Useful if you need to kill something next to you or something that's resistant to fire. Also, it's quieter than fireball and fire storm, which could be useful in Tomb where stealth is advisable (haven't been there yet to test this, though).
Summon Horrible Things (8). A sturdier meat shield than Demonic Horde. Also useful against those massively annoying Silent Spectres. The INT abuse is annoying, though.
Fire Storm (9). Easily my favourite spell in the game. High damage output, smite-targeted so it works well with summons and it even creates vortices to distract your enemies. This spell alone would be a good reason to always go with Vehumet.

Situational:
Control Teleport (4). Mainly useful if you don't have the ring yet, and if you need to make a desperate escape. Still, this shouldn't come up very often.
Ring of Flames (7). Not a big fan of this myself. It costs quite a few MP, which I'd rather use to cast another Fire Storm. It also combines poorly with summoning spells. Still, some extra damage can be useful. This could be more useful in Gehenna and Coctys (haven't been there yet).

Stuff I used to auto-include, but which no longer seems very useful:
Dig (4). I used to think it was necessary for Slime, but I've since learned that there's a guaranteed path to the bottom. Most of the stuff you'd want to tunnel into are vaults, which usually feature harder walls. For future runs I'd just carry around a wand.
Mass Abjuration (6). I think I've cast this spell once in my entire current run. If a summoner enters LOS he's going to get a face full of fire storm anyway, so he's not going to live long enough to summon much.
Deflect Missiles (6). When something with a ranged attack comes into view, I don't want to waste a turn casting this in which he can shoot me. I cast fire storm, which either kills the threat or puts some vortices between me and it so I don't get hit.

Stuff I haven't tried, but which seems useful:
Apportation (1). For ninjaing runes in Pan.
Sublimation of Blood (2). Emergency mana recovery if crystal ball drains it away.
Death's Door (8). Haven't found a Necronomicon yet in my current game, but I want to test it.
Necromutation (8). See above re: necronomicon. Seems massively useful, though.
Shatter (9). A multi-targetting LCS. Need to train earth before I can cast it reliably.
Summon Dragon (9). Summoning without the downsides of Haunt/Horrible Things.

Stuff you mentioned that I don't see much use for:
Stoneskin. If something is attacking you, kill it and/or blink away.
Bolt of Fire. I like Fireball better, as open spaces seem more common than hallways, and it's cheaper, so it still has a use after getting fire storm.
Invisibility: For a 3-rune game, stealth is useless. When fire storm is your main attack everything on the level is going to come look at the fireworks anyway, and you should have no trouble killing them all. It becomes more important in places like the abyss, where there's an infinite amount of enemies and quickly popping upstairs to regain MP isn't an option. Even then, a bit of Stealth training should quickly get you to extremely stealthy, reducing the need for more.
Delayed Fireball: I know it's only two extra levels, but I've never found myself wishing I had it. Either the opponent is tough enough that a fireball isn't going to do much good, or I can just kill it with the regular version, which is only 4 MP.
Orb of Destruction: Takes too much time to hit stuff and can hit the wrong target. Just use fire storm.

If anyone has any other good spell suggestions, I'd love to hear them as well.

[tself55]

I've not got many wizard wins, and I generally get further on higher hp characters than deep elves, but I have 15 runed a NaWz with firestorm, and gotten a bunch of spellcasters far, so I'll have a go at trimming down your list. Make sure to keep in mind that you probably won't find all these spells without sif-muna / serious zig raiding / scumming pan, so availability also helps trim the selection a bit on each run.

control teleport and dig can definitely go because there are pretty common items that do their job.
LCS isn't going to get much use when you have all the others, and i'd probably say that shatter isn't necessary either.
Delayed+Fireball isn't going to be used very much anymore once you get firestorm.
Deflect Missiles is overkill, i'd only use repel missiles if you're strapped for spell levels.
Invisibility is good, but i've never ended up using it much on a fire-stormer.

that drops about 42 spell levels, but im generally fond of Phase Shift for 5 as well.

Endgame i'd drop orb of destruction as well, its hard to aim well especially with lots of summons (hell effects/demon spells) and fire storm is great at killing things fast anyways...

[One-Eyed Jack]

Summon dragon
Necromut

aa macro

Edit: in op, axe IOOD, shatter, invis, replace dmsl with rmsl, replace LCS with iron shot, get rid of either bolt of fire or fireball (or both)

You don't need 6 high level killing spells

[some12fat2move]

No love for control teleport? Getting to wear 2 rings with cTele is pretty gravy but I guess we have to cut somewhere. I'll do a bit more scrutiny before removing it though. As for dig, yeah I guess the wand is a better plan, that I will cut off the list. I think I'll cut Mephitic Cloud too, since everything I run into later on if it's not immune has plenty of hit dice. Discussing Invisibility kind of makes me realize it's not all that good for Deep Elves; while the Stealth bonus at first glance appears awesome, you really can't use it all the time without mutating yourself from contamination, so you will only be getting that bonus sporadically at best. Granted, it can be used as a melee combat buff (stabbing bonuses, improved EV) but that's not all that good for Deep Elves, so I'll scratch it off the list. Regarding RoF and Stoneskin and Deflect Missiles, the idea is to cast them before combat rather than in combat, for example before going down a staircase. Stoneskin is good and cheap, I might cut it though since what we're looking for is the best of the best. Phase shift seems to me a more expensive version of Stoneskin, it's cool but I've never thought it was worth all those slots on a Deep Elf. I don't think I could bear cutting dMsl (but I may have to swap it with rMsl) as I seem to have the most trouble with ranged enemies. RoF is great for spell enhancer, resistance, walking through fire clouds left over from Firestorms, and killing enemies that are adjacent to you (which, by the way, is partly the motive behind Lehudib's Crystal Spear, Shatter, and Bolt of Fire, though having all three is I guess redundant). Bolt of Fire's peculiar targeting (that is, beam and piercing) is useful in some situations but on reflection I have to say it's not worth the spell slots. LCS is mainly what I use in melee and it's saved my ass many a time even with Firestorm in the arsenal. Shatter I've never actually used, seen it in spellbooks several times, included it in the list because it sounds awesome. It probably outclasses LCS entirely (since I use Firm Storm at range), so I guess I'll get rid of LCS. Good point made about Orb of Destruction, it's really replaced by Firestorm so I'll remove it. Delayed Fireball is a good buff but cutting it and Fireball would give a whopping seven spell slots. I'll put off that cut until further scrutiny is made but I think I'll have to do it. Mass Abjuration does take a lot of the scariness out of ancient liches, shadow fiends, and several others but it may have to go if the cuts so far are not enough. As for the summoning spells that were suggested, I'm really not fond of them as they don't do much more than Summon Butterflies does and they cost a heck of a lot more spell slots. Anyway now it's time for a little math. Thanks for the suggestions, this has been really helpful!

[FalconNL]

Shatter I've never actually used, seen it in spellbooks several times, included it in the list because it sounds awesome. It probably outclasses LCS entirely

Saw your comment and got curious about whether this was actually the case, so I had a look at the source code. Surprisingly, I'm not so sure it is. LCS has an average damage of (23+pow)/2, which works out to roughly 60 damage assuming 27 conjuration, no earth magic skill, 40 INT and no enhancers. Shatter's formula is a bit more complicated: it does num_dice*(5+pow/3)/2 - target's AC/2, where num_dice varies between 1 and 6 depending on the monster type. If the monster is levitating or flying (like a sizable percentage of all demons, which are your most common enemy in the postgame), num_dice is only 1. So if we take, for example, a cacodemon we get 1*(5+100/3)/2 - 5.5, or about 14 on average. Sure, you'll do much better against skeletons and the like, but suddenly shatter isn't looking so great anymore, especially for a level 9 spell. In fact, based on One-Eyed Jack's advice I've gone and added Iron Shot to my repertoire (will forget LCS when I get a necronomicon or summon dragon castable), since the damage isn't that much less, it's cheaper and it makes less noise.

As for the summoning spells that were suggested, I'm really not fond of them as they don't do much more than Summon Butterflies does and they cost a heck of a lot more spell slots.

Out of curiosity I did a Ziggurat run with a copy of my character today, just to get some sense of what I'd be facing if I were to go in one for real. Surprisingly, I managed to clear the whole thing. Even cleared one floor with about 10 Pan lords on it. You know what was worse than the 10 Pan lords? Floors with Silent Spectres on them. On the easier floors you can kill them with a wand of fire, but when they're surrounded by all kinds of tormentors, smiters, etc. that's not really an option. Summon horrible things really saved my ass on those floors. But if you have an alternative strategy, I'm all ears since the INT loss really adds up.

[crate]

LCS and shatter do completely different things. LCS kills a single target very dead, shatter breaks walls and damages everything in LOS and makes a godawful racket.

As far as conjurations go, I would recommend: Fire storm, one of (poison arrow, iron shot, LCS), and bolt of fire. These are all useful in their own way and there is not much redundancy. (Personally if I can cast LCS I would always learn LCS instead of iron shot since it does iron shot's job but does it faster.)

For the rest you learn the spells that do what you want that you have access to. Most spells in crawl are good.

[mikee]

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/zigro ... 160015.txt

[some12fat2move]

LCS has an average damage of (23+pow)/2, which works out to roughly 60 damage assuming 27 conjuration, no earth magic skill, 40 INT and no enhancers. Shatter's formula is a bit more complicated: it does num_dice*(5+pow/3)/2 - target's AC/2, where num_dice varies between 1 and 6 depending on the monster type. If the monster is levitating or flying (like a sizable percentage of all demons, which are your most common enemy in the postgame), num_dice is only 1. So if we take, for example, a cacodemon we get 1*(5+100/3)/2 - 5.5, or about 14 on average. Sure, you'll do much better against skeletons and the like, but suddenly shatter isn't looking so great anymore, especially for a level 9 spell. In fact, based on One-Eyed Jack's advice I've gone and added Iron Shot to my repertoire (will forget LCS when I get a necronomicon or summon dragon castable), since the damage isn't that much less, it's cheaper and it makes less noise.

Thanks a bunch! Will drop Shatter for LCS, which frees up a spell slot to get Stoneskin (I found there was already one slot free). I've used Iron Shot and I know it's a viable option but I do prefer LCS. It seems to be around 20%~30% stronger in my experience so that's kind of a big difference, never looked at the formula though so it could just be chance or psychological.

You know what was worse than the 10 Pan lords? Floors with Silent Spectres on them. On the easier floors you can kill them with a wand of fire, but when they're surrounded by all kinds of tormentors, smiters, etc. that's not really an option. Summon horrible things really saved my ass on those floors. But if you have an alternative strategy, I'm all ears since the INT loss really adds up.

Hmmmm...I've never really seen Silent Spectres working together with other enemies before so I kind of forgot about them. For an alternative strategy, since Silent Spectres walk through clouds of fire (Hungry Ghosts do so I think it's probable, haven't confirmed it though), then would it work to simply cast Fire Storm while outside of silence and lure them through it? Ring of Flames could be useful if the situation makes it optimal to walk through the clouds of fire, and Haste and/or Swiftness would help so you can get out of there right away after getting the Spectre to notice you (with a wand or a dart or something). I mean, sure it's a noisy approach and not as smooth as the horrible things, but it might just be good enough (and as you said, the INT loss really adds up). If that's not good enough, and there's really no way around beating these guys without summoning, I could just add Summon Dragon to the list. That would sadly cost 9 spell slots, which is a formidable hit to the spell set but I guess do-able (I still have some niceties like Mass Abjuration and the newly-instated Stoneskin that can be cut without too many tears).

EDIT: Tried the Firestorm lure thing and it doesn't work. Firestorm's clouds of flame don't last long enough.

[some12fat2move]

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/zigrobin/morgue-zigrobin-20120708-160015.txt

I always just leave them be until their mirror wears off, any reason why that's not always do-able?

[crate]

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/zigrobin/morgue-zigrobin-20120708-160015.txt

I always just leave them be until their mirror wears off, any reason why that's not always do-able?

mikee was posting that as an ideal spell set.

[some12fat2move]

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/zigrobin/morgue-zigrobin-20120708-160015.txt

I always just leave them be until their mirror wears off, any reason why that's not always do-able?

mikee was posting that as an ideal spell set.

Oh, sorry. Thought the post was supposed to be making a case for summoning. As for the character's spell set, I can see the synergy between Airstrike & Shatter, but isn't LCS more powerful against flying enemies than Airstrike anyway? (I've never actually used Airstrike so this is just going off the info on the wiki, which is...let's just say I'd appreciate it if someone would confirm this). Besides, I'm not sure if that combination is a justifiable 5 spell slots better than LCS anyway. I actually forgot about Tornado, how silly of me as it is a wonderful buff, I'll definitely cut some of the more mediocre spells for it. As a DEWz I don't think Borgnjor is going to do me much good, as a full HP bar doesn't last long and I have a phobia of using it anyway. Apportation I've found useful on ranged weapon attackers but it's never helped me on conjurers. I notice you didn't take Stoneskin, cTele, dMsl (just rMsl), RoF, or Mass Abjuration, all of which are prudent and perhaps necessary cuts though I am very found of blinking without fear of engulfment in flames. Anyway thank you, this is some really helpful advice and if you can I'd like to hear more about that Airstrike + Shatter idea.

[mikee]

Oh, sorry. Thought the post was supposed to be making a case for summoning.

FYI, summons don't actually take the damage of injury mirror for you.

This isn't actually my character - it's a shared account called zigrobin. Probably pivotal was the one to pick these spells. I agree with it almost completely, though... characters that scum zigs generally all look the same.

Airstrike is to kill giant eyeballs. The point of these spells is efficiency and being able to survive unforeseen disasters or mistakes, which is why they include borg but not ring of flames. Anyway, good luck playing around with these - I recommend wizmode for testing spells if you'd like.

[evilmike]

FYI, summons don't actually take the damage of injury mirror for you.

When I summon things against deep dwarves, my summons seem pretty good at taking the damage for me. The message is "your [foo] suffers a backlash", or something like that. Overall it's a good way to kill deep dwarves, although I think it's easier to just skip DD levels in zigs.

[moocowmoocow]

What is the point of having Firestorm, Tornado and Shatter? Wouldn't one be sufficient, or is it to work around resistances or something?

[some12fat2move]

What is the point of having Firestorm, Tornado and Shatter? Wouldn't one be sufficient, or is it to work around resistances or something?

Well I don't have a lot of experience with Tornado or Shatter, but here's my estimation of things:

Tornado's a buff, so you would ideally want to cast it before you get into combat or at least at the start of combat, and it will damage enemies in conjunction with your attack spells. Firestorm is your ranged attack (since it's not a good idea to use it on an enemy adjacent to you), and Shatter is your melee attack (since it's weaker than Firestorm but can be used in melee). In fact it might be a good idea to throw in Lehudib's Crystal Spear, or swap Shatter for it, since Shatter's damage against airborne enemies is significantly reduced.

Airstrike is to kill giant eyeballs. The point of these spells is efficiency and being able to survive unforeseen disasters or mistakes, which is why they include borg but not ring of flames. Anyway, good luck playing around with these - I recommend wizmode for testing spells if you'd like.

So it's basically there to save MP on enemies you would one-shot? I guess I can see that, though 4 spell slots is a hefty price just for that...however it would also be nice to have a (relatively) quieter spell on list. Maybe I will do some wizmode testing. Thanks.

[crate]

some1: I think you should probably use tornado and shatter before you tell people what they are for.

[some12fat2move]

some1: I think you should probably use tornado and shatter before you tell people what they are for.

Yeah I probably should. Edited in a sentence at the start to fix that.

[ddubois]

O Level 27 Fighting
O Level 27 Maces & Flails
O Level 27 Staves
O Level 27 Throwing
O Level 27 Armour
O Level 27 Dodging
O Level 27 Stealth
O Level 27 Stabbing
O Level 27 Shields
O Level 27 Traps & Doors
O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
O Level 27 Spellcasting
O Level 27 Conjurations
O Level 27 Charms
- Level 1.9 Summonings
O Level 27 Necromancy
O Level 27 Translocations
O Level 27 Transmutations
O Level 27 Fire Magic
O Level 27 Air Magic
O Level 27 Earth Magic
O Level 27 Invocations
O Level 27 Evocations
....
It reflects your damage back at you!
You die...

How are you still able to post after slashing wrists?

[tasonir]

O Level 27 Fighting
O Level 27 Maces & Flails
O Level 27 Staves
O Level 27 Throwing
O Level 27 Armour
O Level 27 Dodging
O Level 27 Stealth
O Level 27 Stabbing
O Level 27 Shields
O Level 27 Traps & Doors
O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
O Level 27 Spellcasting
O Level 27 Conjurations
O Level 27 Charms
- Level 1.9 Summonings
O Level 27 Necromancy
O Level 27 Translocations
O Level 27 Transmutations
O Level 27 Fire Magic
O Level 27 Air Magic
O Level 27 Earth Magic
O Level 27 Invocations
O Level 27 Evocations
....
It reflects your damage back at you!
You die...

How are you still able to post after slashing wrists?

I have to imagine that after running that many zigs they really weren't that concerned with ever "finishing" the game.