Rate your species!


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Lair Larrikin

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Joined: Thursday, 9th February 2012, 17:20

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2012, 19:49

Rate your species!

Just for fun rate all the species that you have played with according to the level of difficulty*.
100 - extremely difficult
50 - human
1- extremely easy

Leave any species you are not familiar with NA and mark the rating that you are filling with bold letters.
I'll post the results (mean per species, perhaps a couple plots) in one week.

Check the data in
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApkEvM26GH-OdHBWQUVPSThEaVZ1eWtjYkpmM3hya3c
Thanks!

*For draconians make an average of the grades of all colors.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 18th July 2012, 15:02

Re: Rate your species!

DD: 10
Fe: 100
Gh: 75
Mf: 40
Mi: 20
Na: 30
Op: 70
Og: 60
Tr: 60

The rest, NA. Some are kind of hard to reduce to a single number, since they have easy starts, hard late game (troll) or naga (hard early, easy later), but hey. If you get enough responses it may be interesting data :)

Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 18th July 2012, 15:38

Re: Rate your species!

Thanks for your answers guys, I updated the table with your answers and modiffied the table a bit so hopefully its easier to fill. Please tell me if it is still unclear and if so, how could it be modiffied.

tasonir wrote:DD: 10
The rest, NA. Some are kind of hard to reduce to a single number, since they have easy starts, hard late game (troll) or naga (hard early, easy later), but hey. If you get enough responses it may be interesting data :)


Assume the ratting measures how difficult is to get a 3 rune game with a certain species as compared to humans. If a species has a difficult time arriving to the late game or surviving it then it should be marked as difficult in the speadsheet.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 18th July 2012, 17:16

Re: Rate your species!

Ce: 5
Dg: 40
Ds: 65
Dr: 40
DD: 5
DE: 60
HE: 65
SE: 40
Fe: 35
Gh: 60
Ha: 30
Ko: 40
Mf: 30
Mi: 30
Mu: 100
Na: 60
Op: 70
Og: 60
HO: 10
Sp: 5
Te: 80
Tr: 30
Vp: 60

Just quick first impression if I had to put a number to them.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 18th July 2012, 17:41

Re: Rate your species!

Ce: 10
Dg: 55
Ds: 40
Dr: 40
DD: 5
DE: 30
HE: 50
SE: 55
Fe: 45
Gh: 35
Hu: 30
Ha: 35
Ko: 50
Mf: 20
Mi: 20
Mu: 65
Na: 80
Op: 65
Og: 65
HO: 20
Sp: 15
Te: 55
Tr: 35
Vp: 50

Every species has the potential to be incredibly strong, which is why I didn't rate anything higher than 80. In addition, I make no claims that this is an unbiased list that should hold true for most people; I favor a few specific playstyles that work a lot better with some species than with others. Most specifically, my rankings of mu and na are atypical—slow speed is a much harsher penalty for my purposes than lack of potions; nagas remain the one race that I am unsure I can win.

Also, human=average is a terrible measuring stick, since humans are very strong.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 19th July 2012, 06:57

Re: Rate your species!

Ce: 30
Dg: 50
Ds: 70
Dr: 35
DD: 10
DE: 20
HE: 60
SE: 40
Fe: 20
Gh: 35
Hu: 30
Ha: 50
Ko: 50
Mf: 20
Mi: 10
Mu: 75
Na: 50
Op: 50
Og: 30
HO: 40
Sp: 15
Te: 90
Tr: 20
Vp: 30

Shoals Surfer

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Joined: Monday, 4th July 2011, 16:26

Post Thursday, 19th July 2012, 07:31

Re: Rate your species!

Ce: 5
Mi: 15
Mf: 30
DD: 50
Sp: 70
Ko: 40
HO: 30
Dr: 25
Na: 80
VP: 70
DE: 30
HE: 50
Op: 90
DG: 60

Haven't played much with the others. Yes, SP/DD/VP are objectively strong species. I just suck with them.

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 25th July 2012, 03:12

Re: Rate your species!

I'm surprised people think DDs are easier than SPs. I've been playing them some lately, and having lots of trouble. If I DDNe, I tend to lose more HP with Vampiric Draining than I gain (via letting monsters into melee range), and if I DDBe w/ slings, my ability to kill stuff before it gets into melee range nosedives when I start seeing warlords and ettins. I enjoy how the constraints force me to alter my playstyle, but I don't find it easy.

Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 25th July 2012, 11:48

Re: Rate your species!

DD starts with a wand of healing, and can recharge it with 1 permanent MP. You should not hesitate to use it. It will save you in almost any situation.

Also, in my experience EE is easier than Ne with DD because of the wonderful earth aptitude. Stone arrow can kill anything easily for a long time, and you will have LRD+petrify online really quickly. You need not to let anything close. Makhleb is much more important than vampiric draining.

Spriggans are very strong, but in some unlucky situations can die very easily early on because of the lack of hp. (Like facing 4 orc priests after opening a door or failing to dodge Ijyb's wand of lighting or something). DD has much more hp, and the wand.

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 25th July 2012, 18:23

Re: Rate your species!

I guess my biggest problem in crawl is my stinginess with consumables. I don't like using !healing unless I "need" to, and walk around at fractional life constantly. And my part of me is aghast at the idea of losing max MP, even on a Trog worshipper :o.

What's you personal algorithm for deciding when to use a !healing charge?
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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 25th July 2012, 19:22

Re: Rate your species!

ddubois wrote:I guess my biggest problem in crawl is my stinginess with consumables. I don't like using !healing unless I "need" to, and walk around at fractional life constantly. And my part of me is aghast at the idea of losing max MP, even on a Trog worshipper :o.

What's you personal algorithm for deciding when to use a !healing charge?


If you're sticking with Trog the whole game, there's no reason conserving your max MP imo. I've won one DD of Trog and surfaced with 22MPs left. That meant I had approximately 80-100 carry-free potions of heal wounds left because of the recharging ability. If you dont find enough scrolls of recharging don't hesitate to use the ability on the other important wands too.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 2nd August 2012, 03:45

Re: Rate your species!

ddubois wrote: if I DDBe w/ slings, my ability to kill stuff before it gets into melee range nosedives when I start seeing warlords and ettins. I enjoy how the constraints force me to alter my playstyle, but I don't find it easy.


I've played a fair amount of DDBe's, finally getting my first win with them...I didn't really see the need to go into ranged combat. Don't get me wrong, ranged combat is great, but if you don't have the quality sling/ammo stacks I'd say just stick with axes. I try to use wand/potions as much as possible early on, and no trog's hand, until he gifts you a battleaxe. Once you have the axe, start spamming trog's hand for your healing and save your mana, if possible. Of course if you need it, use the wand. Never leave the wand at 0 or 1 charges, 2 minimum, 3 is probably better. Feel free to train evocations for more mana if you need it.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 2nd August 2012, 21:32

Re: Rate your species!

The following stats assume optimal class and optimal God

Ce: 60 A catastrophe on defensive skills, good only with the bow and unarmed combat
Dg: 60 Like strong versions of humans, but advance slower and can't worship a god
Ds: 50 Yrel or Mahkleb make good choices-- remember the +2 on Invocations
Dr: 40 Powerful in late game
DD: 40 Must wield axe. Powerful in late game.
DE: 60 Vehumet, any class of spellcaster
HE: 50 Vehumet or Okarawu, Air Elementalist or Hunter
SE: 50 Ashenzari or Okarawu, Transmuter or Stalker
Fe: 70 Felids are extremely limited.
Gh: ? I do not play Ghouls.
Ha: 40 Must wield a sling and short sword.
Ko: 40 Necromancer or Assassin.
Me: 40 Many classes, but must wield a Pole Arm.
Mi: 30 Minotaurs are easy any time of the day or night
Mu: 50 Kiku, Okarawu or Ashenzari, Necromancer _only_!
Na: 40 Chiro is a god tailor-made for Nagas who can play many classes.
Oc: 60 Stalker, Transmuter, or Venom Mage
Og: 40 Ogre Death Knights worshipping Yrel have an easy time of things
HO: ? I never play half-orcs.
Sp: 30 Ashenzari, Assassin
Te: 60 Vehumet, Air Elementalist only
Tr: 70 Trolls are extremely limited and only strong in the beginning
Vp: ? I have never played vampires.

I changed my score on Demigods and Demonspawns. Demonspawns seem easier to play than Demi-Gods, because of the permanent beneficial mutations Demonspawn receive as they increase in levels and their slightly better aptitudes.
Last edited by igor on Friday, 3rd August 2012, 17:04, edited 1 time in total.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 2nd August 2012, 21:39

Re: Rate your species!

Sif Muna is the *optimal* god for mummies, and wz is probably the strongest background
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Eringya's Employee

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Post Thursday, 2nd August 2012, 22:47

Re: Rate your species!

The following list was made with what I believe is "optimal" for each race, no challenge specs in mind, like MuCK... I mean, assuming Trog on every non-Gh, non-Mu species is pretty much viable and sets them all around 10-30 depending on fragility.

Hu : 50 (not quite sure about this, but humans seem very average to me, I definitely think they're not easy in the early game due to the neutral apts)
HE : 40 (assuming Wz/AE/FE, still the XP penalty is pretty high)
SE : 35 (assuming Tm)
DE : 35 (assuming Wz/Elementalist)
DD : 5 (assuming Ely, Makhleb or even TSO for the endgame, or at least Trog, which won't care about your max mp anyway)
HO : 35 (assuming Be, saprovore makes for a much better food game)
Mf : 25 (assuming Be or anything else of Trog/Okawaru and polearms)
Ha : 25 (assuming Slinger of Trog or Okawaru)
Ko : 20 (assuming Be or joining Trog at the temple, caster builds are pretty easy too because you cans sruff yourself silly and not worry about spell hunger, but i'll stick with Trog)
Ce : 40 (assuming something that makes use of their speed for kiting, like polearms/ranged combat, otherwise they have terrible defence apts, large size makes EV low)
Sp : 15 (kite stuff, ninja stuff, use spells)
Te : 55 (very fragile so perhaps they should stick to casting and/or ranged weaponry, otherwise great apts for anything)
Dr : 55 (no body armour has made them glass cannons. Getting spells since you have no body armour to worry about spell failure is pretty much a no brainer)
Na : 50 (in trunk they have a pre-constriction time reaching XL:13 and getting it, with whatever that entails)
Mi : 25 (go Be or anything Trog/Okawaru and stick with melee, adding in some Evo/Ranged weapons if you will)
Og : 60 (despite their great M&F apt, they're too glass cannon-y for my tastes for reasons explained on the Troll section)
Tr : 50 (incredibly easy start, but they quickly become glass cannons due to not being able to slap a plate armour on themselves before heavy dragon armour becomes available to them, not unlike Ogres)
Dg : 60 (worse apts than humans, hard to level up)
Ds : 55 (similar to humans and demigods)
Mu : 95 (assuming something that actually takes advantage of the benefit of hungerless, like a spammoner of Sif, would have set the difficulty much, much lower)
Vp : 50 (interesting race but they best support builds which I don't fondly play, As and En)
Gh : 30 (great Fi/Mo of Okawaru imho, once you get to the extended you probably should swap to Kiku for corpse delivery)
Op : 75 (better at being casters than anything else, too squishy for my tastes)
Fe : 100 (same as Octopodes, but much... Okay, MUCH worse)
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2012, 05:03

Re: Rate your species!

Someone should change the wiki's species difficulty rating to match what people say here.
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... difficulty
Dearest Steve
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2012, 07:41

Re: Rate your species!

Ce: 10
Dg: 60
Ds: 50
Dr: 25
DD: 5
DE: 60
SE: 40
Ha: 25
Ko: 65
Mf: 40
Mi: 15
Mu: 90
Na: 40
Op: 75
Og: 40
HO: 25
Sp: 10
Te: 60
Tr: 30
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 4th August 2012, 17:13

Re: Rate your species!

Minotaur, Deep Elf, and Merfolk stand out to me for being the best melee/caster/hybrid, respectively, even if they aren't technically the best. Also to note, I find Ce and DD pretty hard, while Mu isn't too bad.

Ce: 40
Dg: 60
Ds: 30
Dr: 35
DD: 30
DE: 15
HE: 35
SE: 30
Fe: 70
Gh: 50
Hu: 50
Ha: 35
Ko: 30
Mf: 20
Mi: 10
Mu: 60
Na: 50
Op: 60
Og: 40
HO: 25
Sp: 25
Te: 75
Tr: 35
Vp: 30

Spider Stomper

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 10:15

Re: Rate your species!

Seems the general consensus is Mummys are the hardest. I guess 1 race needs that position but how bout giving Mummys Smite immunity or some kind of boost to make them bit more survivable? Or do they eventually catch up in the late game?
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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 11:08

Re: Rate your species!

They don't really catch up, since their main draws (lack of a hunger clock and undead) are near-achievable with any living race eventually. Ones with better Int, better aptitudes, and without being afraid of fire. You can't turn off your hunger clock with other races, but you can slow it down (with spellcasting, -hunger, int, etc) to the point where it's not going to effect the way you play at all.

Mummies have the advantage in that period of the game between when they start getting good spells online and when other races start hitting necromut or extremely high spellcasting/int. Before and after that, they are pretty iffy.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 17:08

Re: Rate your species!

pubby wrote:Someone should remove the wiki's species difficulty rating because of what people say here.
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... difficulty


FTFY

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 19:55

Re: Rate your species!

While the early-game aptitude and leveling penalty for having your brain discarded in an ancient trash bin is probably the most severe of the mummy's disadvantages, my favorite is their total inability to deal with confusion. Since mummies can't cure confusion, this status effect which is normally little more than a potion tax gets upgraded to being worse than paralysis. Paralysis, at the very least, simply declares you dead if it hits you at a bad time, and it can't be re-applied until the last one ends. With confusion, you have to manually advance every single turn while completely helpless, and monsters will happily re-apply confusion to keep you helpless indefinitely. It just rubs it in. Confusion is also about six times more common than paralysis, since it is normally so much more manageable for the majority of characters, so you get to see it in action quite a bit.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 20:03

Re: Rate your species!

KoboldLord wrote:While the early-game aptitude and leveling penalty for having your brain discarded in an ancient trash bin is probably the most severe of the mummy's disadvantages, my favorite is their total inability to deal with confusion. Since mummies can't cure confusion, this status effect which is normally little more than a potion tax gets upgraded to being worse than paralysis. Paralysis, at the very least, simply declares you dead if it hits you at a bad time, and it can't be re-applied until the last one ends. With confusion, you have to manually advance every single turn while completely helpless, and monsters will happily re-apply confusion to keep you helpless indefinitely. It just rubs it in. Confusion is also about six times more common than paralysis, since it is normally so much more manageable for the majority of characters, so you get to see it in action quite a bit.


Good point KoboldLord, I observed the same playing my Mummy Necromancer yesterday. An amulet of clarity proves to be just what the Doctor (or KoboldLord) ordered. Either that, or leather armour of magic resistance combined with a helmet of magic resistance. Confusion is the nemesis of Mummies! Daddies don't mind it on the other hand.

Right now I am experimenting with a Troll Transmuter, mainly because it is not a recommended class/species combo. I like going unorthodox and doing something the developers don't recommend. So far I've found that Ogre Death Knights are twenty-two flavours of awesome, and I really think Troll Transmuters might be viable now with the new (new to us old-timers?) Beastly Appendage spell, which truly transformed the Book of Changes into something wonderful. Oh, and my favorite new God is Ashenzari, hands down (because they're holding a cursed giant spiked club).
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 22:04

Re: Rate your species!

While mummies have it kinda rough, you can abuse sif muna's channelling with an MP dump spell and laugh it all off. If you combine this with summoning or another otherwise taxing spell, you can have a hilarious amount of spam. My mummy win was done as a wizard and gradually progressing up the summoning tree. Summon Imps->Summon-Ugly things->Summon Horrible Things->Summon Dragons. Once I had summon dragons, I would proceed to run around dumping dragons all over the place and watching everything die. The only dangerous areas were vault:8 and the possibility of hitting a mineshaft.
"You draw a card... It is the Bones."
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 22:22

Re: Rate your species!

igor wrote:Right now I am experimenting with a Troll Transmuter, mainly because it is not a recommended class/species combo. I like going unorthodox and doing something the developers don't recommend. And I really think Troll Transmuters might be viable now with the new (new to us old-timers?) Beastly Appendage spell, which truly transformed the Book of Changes into something wonderful.


Troll Transmuters are actually quite competent, but the biggest problem is their horrendous spellcasting aptitude, and the -3 to everything ever doesn't help either.
The extremely low int (9 right off the bat) doesn't exactly compliment the situation either, which is why I (personally) wouldn't even want to attempt getting any decent transmutations online without Chei's +15 boost.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 5th August 2012, 23:59

Re: Rate your species!

minmay wrote:TrTm has always been extremely good because it is a troll with spider form. What is so bad about the spellcasting aptitude? You don't need a lot of slots and, being a troll, care even less about spell hunger than most characters. The charms aptitude hurts though.


Well, after many defeats, I've finally gotten a Troll Transmuter that can clean out the Orcish Mines. Not bad. Does that mean he could win? No. But is he viable? Maybe. The only spell I use is Beastly Appendage, and I don't really know how much it enhances my unarmed combat, and dread somebody here telling me "not at all," which I fear may be true. Part of my plan is to hope for a spellbook with Fulsome Dissertation (Expectoration? Meditation? I forget!) and Evaporate, because those are really keen low level spells suitable for Trolls, Ogres and other graduates of Stupid School. My hero worships Yrel, one of my favorite Gods, because although Trolls are bad at Invocations (and everything else), Yrel's powers up to and including Drain Life only need a competency of about 7 or 8 to work 92% of the time, and #5, Enslave Soul, I can live without. But mainly I like Yrel for the undead servants that pop up and the legions of animated dead. It's lonely being a Troll without Yrel, because Summoning is almost out of the question. Having lots of friends is extremely useful for a lot of reasons, defensive and offensive.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 6th August 2012, 09:46

Re: Rate your species!

What a nice topic. Now I dominate over everything as deep dwarf. Yesterday was able to survive crazy orcish grinder in a place named Bailey with lvl8 berserk. It's almost unbelievable. Thanks for ratings.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Monday, 6th August 2012, 11:24

Re: Rate your species!

Skipping two that presented classes and stuff, here's the results (god did this bore me, you better be glad you didn't do it):

  • Ce - 17
  • Dg - 53
  • Ds - 51
  • Dr - 36
  • DD - 15
  • DE - 38
  • HE - 50 (No rounding!)
  • SE - 40
  • Fe - 48
  • Gh - 52
  • Ha - 35
  • Hu - 37
  • Ko - 46
  • Mf - 29
  • Mi - 19
  • Mu - 82
  • Na - 56
  • Op - 71
  • Og - 51
  • HO - 26
  • Sp - 23
  • Te - 73
  • Tr - 34
  • Vp - 48
In case you want the nasty numbers.

DD > Ce > Mi > Sp > HO > Mf > Tr > Ha > Dr > Hu > DE > SE > Ko > Fe >= Vp (same results damn it) > HE > Og >= Ds > Gh > Dg > Na > Op > Te > Mu

Now, if you excuse me - Zzz
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 6th August 2012, 16:13

Re: Rate your species!

Bloax wrote:Skipping two that presented classes and stuff, here's the results (god did this bore me, you better be glad you didn't do it):

  • Ce - 17
  • Dg - 53
  • Ds - 51
  • Dr - 36
  • DD - 15
  • DE - 38
  • HE - 50 (No rounding!)
  • SE - 40
  • Fe - 48
  • Gh - 52
  • Ha - 35
  • Hu - 37
  • Ko - 46
  • Mf - 29
  • Mi - 19
  • Mu - 82
  • Na - 56
  • Op - 71
  • Og - 51
  • HO - 26
  • Sp - 23
  • Te - 73
  • Tr - 34
  • Vp - 48
In case you want the nasty numbers.

DD > Ce > Mi > Sp > HO > Mf > Tr > Ha > Dr > Hu > DE > SE > Ko > Fe >= Vp (same results damn it) > HE > Og >= Ds > Gh > Dg > Na > Op > Te > Mu

Now, if you excuse me - Zzz


Deep Dwarves are indeed very powerful. I quit playing them because worshiping Trog is about all they need to do, end of story pretty much. Octopodes are certainly difficult in the beginning, although they are really fun in the late game and kind of pointless once you acquire a couple of artifact rings and magical power rings. Octopode Venom Mages with 50+ magic points are pretty powerful. I don't understand why everyone thinks Mummies are so difficult. A Mummy Necromancer worshiping Kiku or Ashenzari is just ridiculously powerful. Just don leather armour or ring mail of fire resistance, or dragon armour when you find it. Mummies have enormous advantages that are not apparent looking at the attributes chart. From a defensive perspective, there is no better race. They can carry more than any but the strongest races, because they use neither food nor potions (unless they cast Evaporate). Anytime a Mummy is injured, or anytime a Mummy spends 1 magic point, or anytime he is contaminated, he can rest and restore ("5") at absolutely no cost. Spellcasting is free with no side effects like hunger or mutation or in the case of the Pain spell, hit point loss. I would put Mummies at 40 or 50 in difficulty, but only for Necromancers and Kiku is probably the best choice of god for all his Necro books and free corpses, the play-dough of Necromancers.

Zot Zealot

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Post Friday, 10th August 2012, 14:30

Re: Rate your species!

Hunger is not really an issue for most characters. Really. You can rest with them just as well every time you are injured if you wish.

Several vulnerabilities combined with the lack of the help of potions like heal wound or speed makes them really hard.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2012, 12:53

Re: Rate your species!

sanka wrote:Hunger is not really an issue for most characters. Really. You can rest with them just as well every time you are injured if you wish.

Several vulnerabilities combined with the lack of the help of potions like heal wound or speed makes them really hard.


Hunger is an issue for some races, put it that way, and it really depends on the available food supply. I have noticed lately that 10.2 has ample food even for Trolls and Spriggans, so maybe you are right in general. But with a Mummy, you can rest and recover often and with little or no concern except for discovery by wandering monsters. The absence of digestion also comes in very handy for spellcasting during melee.

Yeah, that's the main problem I've noticed as well, not being able to heal. The only thing Mummies can do, and I don't know whether this is a bug or not, but in 10.2 stable they can cast Vampire Draining and acquire HP from the living. The reason I thought it might be a bug is that in one of the screens, the game indicates that Vampire Draining can't be memorized, but it can. I think that when the developers created the Vampire, they then realized that, logically, Mummies should be allowed to drain as well via Necromancy, since Vampires acquire HP from blood. At any rate, Vampire Draining completely transformed Mummies from an unplayable species into a viable one, but even so the inability to use a potion of healing or heal wounds, or even the Regen spell, really hurts. However, rings of regeneration do work! (Hope I'm not revealing a bug here.) I don't know why rings of regeneration work, but the Necromancy spell, Regeneration, cannot be memorized. A bit of a logical inconsistency. Well, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned this.

I changed my mind now about the optimal class for Mummies. Scratch Necromancer. Again, it's Stalker. Actually Stalker may be a bit overpowered, and I really dread the next version of Crawl because I strongly suspect the developers are going to clip the wings of Stalkers. That Evaporate spell just wipes monsters out. My Mummy is carrying right now 34 potions of Confusion, 12 of poison, 6 of strong poison, 6 of degeneration, 5 of decay, and some others as well because they can also produce freezing clouds or flame clouds at random. And did you know that a potion of Berserk Rage creates a cloud either of flame or steam? Nice to counter ice creatures, eh? Again, Mummies have a little advantage as Stalkers because they can dispense with food, so they can carry a little bit more. I think I erred in trying to wear a Shield, though, because their aptitude at shields sux so badly. Probably a buckler is the optimal defense until much later in the game... oh yes, and as a Stalker, I transitioned to Necromancer ASAP by worshiping Kiku and letting him lay the "good" books on me. There is absolutely no doubt that Kiku / Necromancy is the right combo for Mummies, but starting out as a Stalker really brings big benefits.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2012, 23:54

Re: Rate your species!

igor wrote:Well, after many defeats, I've finally gotten a Troll Transmuter that can clean out the Orcish Mines. Not bad. Does that mean he could win? No. But is he viable? Maybe. The only spell I use is Beastly Appendage, and I don't really know how much it enhances my unarmed combat, and dread somebody here telling me "not at all," which I fear may be true.

Say whaa? I'm baffled that you went as far as Mines on TrTm without any spell other than Beastly Appendages. The only meaningful attacks in UC are your primary hand attacks; hence, the only meaningful effect BA has is changing your hands to tentacles, but this will not happen to Trolls due to their claws (which are better anyway). If you are using only BA on TrTm then you may as well be a berserker.

As mentioned before, TrTm is great because you have the raw combat power of a Troll augmented by the versatility that Spider Form and Ice Form offer. You can mostly breeze through Lair if you have these under your belt. Don't worry about the bad magic aptitudes; they don't slow you down as much as you would expect, and 7 to 10 levels in UC is enough to keep you alive as you get your Transmutations up until Ice Form is at 25% failure.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 721

Joined: Thursday, 9th August 2012, 20:23

Post Sunday, 12th August 2012, 21:33

Re: Rate your species!

igor wrote:The only spell I use is Beastly Appendage, and I don't really know how much it enhances my unarmed combat, and dread somebody here telling me "not at all," which I fear may be true.

ElectricAlbatross wrote:If you are using only BA on TrTm then you may as well be a berserker.


First - "Not at all". Beastly Appendages wouldn't enhance your Unarmed Combat on a Troll because Unarmed Combat no longer applies to anything you strike with that isn't attached to your Arms - and you already got Claws Mutation 3 there.

Second - I would think Beastly Appendages would do alright with Trolls - being unable to wear shoes and lacking the ability to equip helmets you don't suffer from the extra Appendage. Even if Spider Form or Ice Form tend to be quite useful, there would still be situations where you may not want to use those forms - like when your Armor will meld into you. Though that said, I wouldn't forgo using the Form's either.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre
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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 19

Joined: Wednesday, 1st August 2012, 17:21

Post Saturday, 18th August 2012, 11:53

Re: Rate your species!

Davion Fuxa wrote:
igor wrote:The only spell I use is Beastly Appendage, and I don't really know how much it enhances my unarmed combat, and dread somebody here telling me "not at all," which I fear may be true.

ElectricAlbatross wrote:If you are using only BA on TrTm then you may as well be a berserker.


First - "Not at all". Beastly Appendages wouldn't enhance your Unarmed Combat on a Troll because Unarmed Combat no longer applies to anything you strike with that isn't attached to your Arms - and you already got Claws Mutation 3 there.

Second - I would think Beastly Appendages would do alright with Trolls - being unable to wear shoes and lacking the ability to equip helmets you don't suffer from the extra Appendage. Even if Spider Form or Ice Form tend to be quite useful, there would still be situations where you may not want to use those forms - like when your Armor will meld into you. Though that said, I wouldn't forgo using the Form's either.


If I understand you correctly, for a Troll, BA will never modify arms, hence Unarmed Combat skill is not exercised, but BA will increase the number of attacks? Apparently the extra attack from horns or talons will not exercise any ability at all?

I abandoned my TrTm because it was too weak compared to what it might have been as a Berserker. I don't know how I made it through Orcish Mines, but maybe Beastly Appendage did help a bit after all, and I think I had an decent suit of armour such as fire dragon or something like that.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Monday, 25th April 2011, 20:48

Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 16:23

Re: Rate your species!

igor wrote:If I understand you correctly, for a Troll, BA will never modify arms, hence Unarmed Combat skill is not exercised, but BA will increase the number of attacks? Apparently the extra attack from horns or talons will not exercise any ability at all?

I abandoned my TrTm because it was too weak compared to what it might have been as a Berserker. I don't know how I made it through Orcish Mines, but maybe Beastly Appendage did help a bit after all, and I think I had an decent suit of armour such as fire dragon or something like that.

I honestly don't remember whether Unarmed Combat affects the extra attacks from horns and talons, but the fact remains that they simply neither happen often enough nor do enough damage to matter. Much better are the swiftness, EV boost, wall-climbing, and poison-branded attacks of Spider Form or the poison and cold immunity, water walking, and frost-branded unarmed attacks of Ice Form. I'd say you should give TrTm a try again sometime with those spells.
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Dungeon Master

Posts: 431

Joined: Tuesday, 13th September 2011, 17:34

Post Friday, 31st August 2012, 07:32

Re: Rate your species!

UC skill has absolutely no effect on auxiliary attacks from horns, hooves, talons, etc.; they're based solely on your stats.

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