SE Unarmed str or Dex

[Bim]

Just a quick one which I can't seem to find,
What is more beneficial to Unarmed combat, dex or str?

I'm playing as a SE Transmuter, what is best to train?

[lucy_ferre]

Intelligence is more important than either str or dex for a SETm.

[Curio]

What about monk?
Str or Dex more beneficial for pure unarmed fighter?

[KoboldLord]

What about monk?
Str or Dex more beneficial for pure unarmed fighter?

Still int. Heavy armor doesn't go well with unarmed combat, so you're probably going evasion anyway. So there's no reason not to pick up some basic utility spells.

[Curio]

What about monk?
Str or Dex more beneficial for pure unarmed fighter?

Still int. Heavy armor doesn't go well with unarmed combat, so you're probably going evasion anyway. So there's no reason not to pick up some basic utility spells.

"Pure unarmed fighter" means no magic. I'm asking about the choice between this two stats only.

Increase Str to three times the evasion penalty of the heaviest armor you're going to wear (so 27 for gold dragon armor, 3 for leather armor), as that will minimize the penalties. Then increase Dex to get more evasion. Effect on damage and accuracy is ignorable.

Thanks for explanation.
It's too bad that this two stats are pretty redundant in comparison with Int. Actually, this fact frustrates me quite notably.
Choosing int for melee fighter is plain stupid... everywhere except Crawl. Pity.

[KoboldLord]

"Pure unarmed fighter" means no magic. I'm asking about the choice between this two stats only.

I know what you meant. At this time, however, raising str or dex above the bare minimum for any build except Trog worshipper or heavy armor user is basically a self-imposed challenge. A non-Trog unarmed fighter has essentially zero downside for picking up some spellcasting, so it doesn't make sense to choose between two obviously inferior choices.

[Sjohara]

If I recall correctly, unarmed combat has a strength weighting of 40%, so dexterity is just barely better in terms of theoretical max damage. They're so close that carrying capacity vs. evasion is probably the more significant factor, though.

[smock]

I love this game but it's weird.

Are devs thinking of making str and dex more relevant for melee damage and to-hit?

[omndra]

With a good enough weapon stats are not that important, thats why Okawaru is so good.

[smock]

I hope the new Okawaru plays well.

If any case, your comment suggests that the more primal issue is not balancing Oka but rather that str and dex could more forcefully affect combat.

[vintermann]

Okawaru as he is now in trunk is pretty awesome: heroism, the skills boost that replaces strength not only is as good as strength, it combines very nicely with a potion of strength (unlike the original). I haven't used the un-nerfed haste yet due to low invocations, but it does sound too good to be true.

He still gifts junk though. At least, with an amulet of faith, it seems he gifts junk slightly more often

[Sjohara]

Wait, Okawaru got reworked? How did he change? I'd check myself, but I'm in the middle of an especially promising game and I know I'll get myself killed if I take a break to play a new character.

[vintermann]

I just upgraded from 7.1 to trunk. In trunk, Oka has a heroism power that adds 5 to all your combat related skills (that you have at least one of). Dodging, armour, throwing, weapon skill, fighting. Not only is it great in itself (probably at least as good as the strength effect), but when you get strength in addition from a potion, it stacks.

His haste now only affects combat speed, not movement speed. However, wiki says it's exempted from the usual haste nerf - meaning you still get x2 attack speed rather than 1.5x

IMO, Oka is VERY good, I can't believe they let him stay that way for long. Whatever they do, I hope they don't turn him in to the playstyle funnel a couple of the newer gods are.

[galehar]

I love this game but it's weird.

Are devs thinking of making str and dex more relevant for melee damage and to-hit?

Yes! I am quite bothered by this too and will certainly campaign to add this to the 0.9 agenda. Along with higher effect of weapon skills on damage too.

He still gifts junk though. At least, with an amulet of faith, it seems he gifts junk slightly more often

I think making gifts suck less is next on the Oka todo.

[Stormfox]

I think making gifts suck less is next on the Oka todo.

Hope so, and for Trog as well. I understand that the current suck level of Okie/Trog gifts is an artifact of the acquirement code -- the original intent was to keep acquirement from being the Swiss Army chainsaw that wishing in Nethack is, but in the case of god gifts, it kind of went a little too far in the other direction.

Xom, on the other hand...

[smock]

I love this game but it's weird.

Are devs thinking of making str and dex more relevant for melee damage and to-hit?

Yes! I am quite bothered by this too and will certainly campaign to add this to the 0.9 agenda. Along with higher effect of weapon skills on damage too.

He still gifts junk though. At least, with an amulet of faith, it seems he gifts junk slightly more often

I think making gifts suck less is next on the Oka todo.

Well, good news on both fronts! Always assumed that hybrids' stats should all be raised, just because, you know, they're hybrids. Thanks!

[Curio]

"Pure unarmed fighter" means no magic. I'm asking about the choice between this two stats only.

I know what you meant. At this time, however, raising str or dex above the bare minimum for any build except Trog worshipper or heavy armor user is basically a self-imposed challenge. A non-Trog unarmed fighter has essentially zero downside for picking up some spellcasting, so it doesn't make sense to choose between two obviously inferior choices.

Once I had a merfolk monk that knew only one spell, which I forgot to use anyway (butterflies). With maxing out Dex his EV was pretty awesome, but that's not the point. He killed a shadow dragon once in 1 turn (not stabbing). Just punched and kicked like a hammer a few times in 1 turn and wasted a damn dragon. with fists. --- that's was my face.
Lack of magic wasn't a problem - wands and scrolls provided enough utility.