Most Difficult Species for 3-Rune Run?

[rosstin]

Hello all! I recently ascended a couple of easy races (Merfolk and Deep Dwarf) and I'm curious about the current consensus for the absolute most challenging species for a 3-rune run. I've heard a lot of opinions about the hardest race, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus...

This is assuming that the player has the option to pick any background/god they prefer, and just needs to escape with the orb of zot.

[crate]

Mummy

[Deimos]

(Felid, MuWz or MuSu isn't difficult at all)

[Patashu]

If you're used to 0.10 naga, trunk naga will be harder since they don't get constriction until about lair.'
Tengu is hard too, low hp.

[KoboldLord]

Mummy is worse than felid. Most of the difficulty is in the part of the game before Temple, and most of the rest of the difficulty is in the part of the game spanning between the Temple and Lair. Pre-Temple mummies don't yet have the skills to successfully activate the high-hunger spells and abilities that serve as their main advantage in the rest of the game, so you just have a slow-leveling character with mildly bad aptitudes in everything, and you lose access to potions of curing, heal wounds, and speed to boot. And if a centaur comes by and double-turns you with a flaming bow before you can respond, or if an orc wizard decides to spam Confusion a lot, you just die. Later on, you get the safe and boring summoning mummy with infinite channeling from Sif Muna, but that doesn't help when you don't have Sif Muna yet.

Felids are pretty terrible, but with intrinsic speed and carnivore they can brute force their way past most of the early game. They're not the best, or even good, but at least they're good at running away.

[Mankeli]

Mummy.

It is also maybe the most entertaining species IMO (although I like Octopodes and Ghouls as well).

[rosstin]

Alright, so I tried playing a Mummy Ice Elementalist of Sif Muna!

On my first playthrough, I did really well, getting a +7/+3 Glaive of Ice and a +0/+1 Glaive of Fire (hydras), good spellbooks from Muna, a ring of ice and a staff of cold. I had some close calls (I didn't find any fire resist). I was set to clear Snake Pit when I ran into Mennas... I tried to run away but he slew me. I had loads of teleport, but I didn't realize how fast he was! I thought I could just take a few steps to the stair...

My second Mummy is going pretty slow, again no fire resist. I just cleared an ice cave by kiting around ice dragons and using wands of fire on the ice statues... there was a tight spot where I had to use digging to get around ice dragons I was trapped between.

The most annoying thing I've run into so far is Sif Muna's forget spell ability! I keep accidentally forgetting a spell when I'm channelling... I wish there was a way to put a warning flag on the forget spell ability, I've accidentally used it 2 or 3 times and my piety is at **...

Overally, doesn't seem much harder than a Felid... Mummy's have some HP, at least.

[n1000]

Do you want a challenge or do you want to play a mummy of Sif Muna?

[Blade]

The most annoying thing I've run into so far is Sif Muna's forget spell ability! I keep accidentally forgetting a spell when I'm channelling... I wish there was a way to put a warning flag on the forget spell ability, I've accidentally used it 2 or 3 times and my piety is at **...

hint: macro . to aa

[BlackSheep]

The most annoying thing I've run into so far is Sif Muna's forget spell ability! I keep accidentally forgetting a spell when I'm channelling... I wish there was a way to put a warning flag on the forget spell ability

You should probably remap the ability from 'b' to 'B'.

  Code:

=abB

[Eji1700]

My brother does mummy casters all the time, and I can't say it's the absolute hardest thing i've ever seen.

I've personally found melee demonspawns to be pretty damn difficult, and honestly if we're talking MOST difficult anything it's probably chaos knight.

[Deimos]

Mummy is worse than felid. Most of the difficulty is in the part of the game before Temple, and most of the rest of the difficulty is in the part of the game spanning between the Temple and Lair. Pre-Temple mummies don't yet have the skills to successfully activate the high-hunger spells and abilities that serve as their main advantage in the rest of the game, so you just have a slow-leveling character with mildly bad aptitudes in everything, and you lose access to potions of curing, heal wounds, and speed to boot. And if a centaur comes by and double-turns you with a flaming bow before you can respond, or if an orc wizard decides to spam Confusion a lot, you just die. Later on, you get the safe and boring summoning mummy with infinite channeling from Sif Muna, but that doesn't help when you don't have Sif Muna yet.

Felids are pretty terrible, but with intrinsic speed and carnivore they can brute force their way past most of the early game. They're not the best, or even good, but at least they're good at running away.

Then again the pre-lair game only lasts 10-20 minutes, and dying beforehand isn't really an issue because of how easy it is to reroll. Getting your Felid mangled in a couple turns by an Ancient Lich in Tomb, on the other hand... say goodbye to 5 hours of your life.

It'll take much longer to win with a Felid then a Mummy with the average player behind the wheel. Once you make it past the midgame with a Mummy you are (close to) home free for a 3-runer. With a Felid, you're at risk for being instantly ripped apart all the way until you hit the upstairs on D:1 with the orb.

I'm not really sure what the OP means by difficult (most tries it takes to win? Amount of time? Least capability?), but in this case I'd still have to go with Felids. Getting a Mummy though the early game is annoying, but it gets easy very quickly. You might have to deal with being pathetic for the 40 minutes of the game with a Mummy, but you have to deal with being weak all game with a Felid.

[crate]

I am pretty sure fesu of sif is better than musu of sif

[rosstin]

Thanks for the macros suggestion, that was excellent!!

No, I'm loving playing the mummy, it was a great suggestion. The game has been extremely challenging and I'm always wondering who's going to be packing a wand of fire to destroy me with. Running into Mennas the first time was HILARIOUS. And this game is fun/funny too, the best part is that I'm at D10 and XL10 and I haven't found a single book yet, which hasn't happened to me before. So I'm kind of looking at Sif Muna and thinking.... Man, you better send me something good.

[tcjsavannah]

I don't refer to it as startscumming, I refer to it as startdying.

[KoboldLord]

Even after you get past the hard part of the game, mummies still have some non-trivial drawbacks to work around. No potions means you lose the majority of your one-turn emergency consumables, with only scrolls of blinking and fear left over. Losing curing HURTS, and losing speed is very troublesome too. Resistance, heal wounds, brilliance, agility, etc. less so, but curing alone means that every lousy monster with a confusion attack is suddenly just as bad as a monster with paralysis. There are a lot of monsters with confusion attacks!

In exchange, you get poison resistance, which would have only been a problem past the Temple in the first place since you don't get access to curing, and three levels of negative energy resistance, which don't matter for anybody ever. Infinite channeling and hungerless casting is helpful, but it isn't like a typical caster ever runs out of food or has trouble running back upstairs to recover mp.

[bobross419]

Once you have imps online Mu is a bit of a joke... Hungerless casting makes a huge difference when you can constantly surround yourself with Summons. This also removes any problems you might have with confusion. Rpois also makes a difference with casting Meph willy nilly style.

[mageykun]

Felids, obviously. As the one species without digits, they have the hardest time with a keyboard interface.

Runners up: Trolls and ghouls have a somewhat difficult time typing with claws. And Ogres fat-finger a lot.

[Patashu]

Felids, obviously. As the one species without digits, they have the hardest time with a keyboard interface.

Runners up: Trolls and ghouls have a somewhat difficult time typing with claws. And Ogres fat-finger a lot.

Spriggans have to hop from key to key, and putting enough weight into depressing one is difficult.

[Grimm]

Just like archy.

[Bloax]

I think the hardest would be Felid Monk of Cheibriados. You ought to know why.

[Jabberwocky]

Then again the pre-lair game only lasts 10-20 minutes, and dying beforehand isn't really an issue because of how easy it is to reroll. Getting your Felid mangled in a couple turns by an Ancient Lich in Tomb, on the other hand... say goodbye to 5 hours of your life.

Being in tomb as a felid for a three runer doesn't really make all that much sense. Personally I find mummies very difficult.

[Deimos]

Fine, swap out tomb with Zot

[Internet Kraken]

I've personally found melee demonspawns to be pretty damn difficult, and honestly if we're talking MOST difficult anything it's probably chaos knight.

My last win was a 5-rune demonspawn monk of jiyva and I don't recall it being terribly hard. Fun as hell, and jiyva didn't murder me via stat shuffling like she did with my ogres. A more competent player probably could have done all 15 runes but I got freaked out by Hell and just went for the easy runes.

Hardest character I've come close to a 3 rune win with was a mummy death knight. Zot kicked my ass. Didn't even make it to the 5th floor before an executioner got me.

[Bloax]

Have any of you tried the dread FeMo of Chei yet? I can certainly conclude that it's not "hard".

No, it's so hard, it's not even funny. That's how hard it is.

[Stormfox]

A FeMo of Chei would at least start with 2* piety when you took the god. Try FeFi or FeGl (if either of those is possible) for a true exercise in pain.

[Jabberwocky]

AFAIK that isn't possible.

[Bloax]

A FeMo of Chei would at least start with 2* piety when you took the god. Try FeFi or FeGl (if either of those is possible) for a true exercise in pain.

How is not being slow just as you find Chei harder?

[cerebovssquire]

FeFi is possible, FeGl isn't.

[pratamawirya]

A FeMo of Chei would at least start with 2* piety when you took the god. Try FeFi or FeGl (if either of those is possible) for a true exercise in pain.

How is not being slow just as you find Chei harder?

If you don't need to be slow as soon as possible, you can always take Chei later.

[Bloax]

If you don't need to be slow as soon as possible, you can always take Chei later.

That would kind of break the "holy shit" difficulty of it, wouldn't it now.

[Stormfox]

I was thinking about the difficulty of gaining Chei piety with a race that has intrinsic speed. Gaining from 0* would be harder than from 2* (where Chei is already slowing you down a bit). No piety, no abilities...and a god that's doing nothing for you (or nothing good) is worse than having no god at all.

[crate]

Centaur of chei is fine imo, it is a lot like ogre or troll of chei defensively but you are a bit better at moving around. Chei piety does not decay so it is not that hard to get to 1.1 move delay, and from there you're getting piety on most kills.

[rosstin]

Excuse me if this is thread necromancy-- just tried starting up a felid, and I think they're way harder than mummies! I'm playing a very recent trunk, so maybe things have gotten more difficult? I ran a 5-rune mummy on my second try, but I can barely get a Felid Transmuter to the temple! Impressively hard. I remember a version or two ago, felid transmuters were quite strong, it feels like Felid HP has gone done or something.

Challenge accepted!

[crate]

FeTm is bad. You are a tm with almost no benefits other than extra lives (you lose the EV/speed bonuses from being a felid when you are in forms), and in exchange you have -40% hp.

Tm in general is strong but you will obviously have problems when you are playing possibly the worst tm race in the entire game.

[One-Eyed Jack]

I think FeTm is bad relative to other races but I think it's probably at least comparable to DeTm and it's not the worst felid background (I suppose the best is Su or Wz or Fe or Be or whatever)

I also notice a sizeable ev boost in spider form (although I guess it's mostly wasted due to diminishing returns)

[rosstin]

I tried a necro and had more luck-- I had forgotten that, in the last few years of builds, you don't actually need to do hand-to-hand combat to train fighting.

[SavetheendangeredMountainDwarves]

Mummy

No they're not.... They're just the worst in Crawl philosophy and for gameplay. MuNe's I play spend about 10,000 turns per level and are 27 by the Vaults.... I hate it, but whenever I played them I have to sum .

[cerebovssquire]

risking fire giants and stuff on the first ten dungeon levels and completely ruining your score sounds like a very sound strategy, i congratulate you on "exploiting" this