In need of advice for playing a Vampire Monk

[derriesen]

hello forum!

I recently started playing Crawl and fell in love with all the high proficient and fragile races, as always in rougelikes.
So I started playing deepelf and Kenku Wizards and always came to a point, where there HP potentials just broke my neck.
So I decided to not start as a spellcaster but rather start with a suficient meele Characterthat would develop magics later.

My choice is: Vampire Monk. Mainly because:
-Don´t have to watch for food all the day
-Decent aptitudes in relevant Skills
-good enough Aptitudes to develop Spellcasting, especialy Enchantments and transmutations, which will help unarmed combat later on i think
-Bat form

My playstyle until now:
-disable Stealth initially. It eats up EP and is rather good from the start anyways and develops even when turned off
-whack mosnters and suck on them ceeping me Full to regenerate faster
-until lvl 3, where I start transforming into a bat for exploration
-evade hard monsters like Ogres and Named till I feel confident enough to take on them

That worked mediocre for me now because:
-first levels depend on beeing lucky. Been annihilated by freaking bats on lvl 2 and such...
-Often I find myself unable to cope with tougher monsters because they just kick my ass unless...
-I find some nice Wand (Killed Sigmund with to Charges of a wand of draining, other time i transmuted him, and another time i enslaved him and let him be weakend by an orc mage)
-Spellcasters are a pain in the but. Without Mephitic Cloud they just have a sooo high damage potential... its insane.

So I need some advice on general playing behaviour and have some specific questions:
1. Extra meele attack from teeth means i automaticaly attack twice when trying to hit a monster?
2. Spiked Helms give an extra meele attack?
3. So wearing one of those I hack 3 times in one action?
4. Wearing a buckler is unadvisable? Or Should I go for it if it is som nice randart for example?
5. If I put on some armour and it doesn´t show a decrease in attacking speed, can I safely wear it? Or will it cut down on my unarmed damage?
6. How does this whole AC vs. EV work? I know that it checks my EV if a monster tries to hit me, but if it lands a hit, is the damage subtracted by my AC value, or is it just another check that takes off all damage?

That are all questions I come up with right now. I hope u folks can help me out a bit.

Wish you all a nice day!

[lucy_ferre]

1. You attack once and if you hit fast enough you attack again.
2. Yes, but helmets block your teeth.
3. No.
4. I wouldn't use a buckler.
5. The heaviest armor I'd use for UC is dragon armor, but I prefer robes.
6. If you're not wearing heavy armor, then if you get hit your damage is reduced randomly by your AC.

[derriesen]

thanks for the clarification on that.

so i will avoid wearing a helmet. But I guess wearing a wizard hat or a cap wont block my teeth?
I`ll also avoid shilds in general. Vamps have bad aptitudes at that anyway.
In my last attempt i brought my vampymonk up to lvl11 and had even started developing magical skills.
But i was surrounded by an Elephant, an Ogre, an Orc Warrior a giant slug and a Wolfspider on the Level where the Lair has its entrance...

Some Enemies are just super strong... I still have to learn to be more cautious i guess.

[danr]

When you see a new enemy, look them up at http://crawl.develz.org/info/

[gb]

maybe start as a crusader instead

[Sjohara]

Vampire Monk is really not a very strong combo. I've never found the bite attack to activate all that often, and they have no other natural unarmed combat booster, so you wind up being very weak until your unarmed combat skill gets high. If you like magic but don't like the glass cannon backgrounds, there are better starting points, including:

Merfolk Ice Elementalist. It may look like another squishy conjurer build at first, but Ozocubu's Armor is a huge boost to your defenses, Freeze lets you do good damage at close-range without worrying about misses, and Merfolk have decent HP and a phenomenal aptitude at polearms, so they develop into great melee/magic hybrids.

Merfolk Crusader. I don't personally do very well with these, but you get the Berserker Rage spell to get you through tough fights and eventually the excellent Haste spell, and you'll be building up spellcasting skill to use other spellbooks you find or get gifted. High Elf Crusader could also be interesting if you don't mind trading a little HP and experience for increased MP and magical versatility once you start getting other books (worshiping Sif Muna or Vehumet would be an especially good idea in this case).

Sludge Elf Transmuter. Transmuters get Evaporate (basically an alternate version of the ever-useful Mephitic Cloud) which helps them stay alive, and their shapeshifting spells let them do huge amounts of melee damage. The first couple of dungeon levels before you get Evaporate and Spider Form castable can be rough, though. Sludge Elves, in addition to good transmutations, unarmed combat, and spellcasting aptitudes, also have the option of worshiping Kikubaaqudgha for a guaranteed set of support spells that use their also-good Necromancy aptitude (or you could roll the dice with Sif Muna or try a number of other gods, of course). If you like unarmed combat but don't want to be a magic-less Troll Berserker, Transmuter is really the way to go.

[danr]

I wonder if the monk class really adds anything to the game...

[Curio]

I wonder if the monk class really adds anything to the game...

Hey, now. Don't get any crazy ideas containing words "remove" and "monk background", please

Monks is one of my favorite classes.
And here is a least of reasons:
1) They are the only melee/EV class that looks fitting in robes
2) Unarmed combat and lack of spellcasting fits "ascetic lifestyle" of a monk.
3) It's goddamn cool to kill a dragon with your bare fists and feets
4) ??????
5) PROFIT

But there's more! Here is a couple of my crazy ideas to make monks a bit more interesting:
1) Monks lack any source of brands. That's quite a problem for those with claws vs hydras.
Possible solution: adding "brass knuckles", "cestus", "katara" or exotic tekagi-shuko. This way brands can be used by unarmed-oriented characters too. Bonus damage can be negligible.

2) Monks could also have an option of starting weapon/skill added.
Staves. They quite under appreciated. If i'm correct, there is no EV class that starts with stave as of now (except priests - and those have a lot of distinguish as it is)
Thematically, stave would fit monk as well as unarmed combat.


P.S. Sorry for the off-top

[Grimm]

I have a vague idea for there to be unarmed combat "schools" with special moves, comparable to spells or abilities, so that monks get some cool stuff to do, but I have nothing concrete to bring to the table.

[smeej]

Monk is a good class to start out with some races if you don't mind grinding spellcasting later.

On topic, I guess I'd explicitly say that you have to be satiated to be able to use any transformation magic. Just important to remember.

[danr]

I think of monks as good for minotaurs and trolls, they have natural unarmed attacks but are not good at magic.

[Curio]

I think of monks as good for minotaurs and trolls, they have natural unarmed attacks but are not good at magic.

My favorite monks are ghouls, merfolks and trolls. Minotaurs just don't strike me as a kind of unarmed fighter

[szanth]

In Might and Magic 7 (dunno if the others ones did this) being a certain skill level in unarmed (master or grandmaster, can't remember which) would allow you to wield staves as if you were still using unarmed. All the speed bonuses with just extra damage and the ability to enchant a weapon you're using. We kinda do that with auxiliary attacks, but unarmed is still generally very restricted as an early-game combat ability when it's not supplemented with magic of some kind.

[Zicher]

You may want to try a Kenku Monk. They can get an awful lot of aux attacks with their talons, beak and off-hand punches.

[MrMisterMonkey]

centaur monks should work well too

[szanth]

As should minotaur monks.

But the attacks never seem to add up to enough to combat the frail HP the kenku have.

[szanth]

I've been on a pretty sad unarmed kick (no pun intended) lately. Pretty much all my guys die within the first five levels; been doing a lot of KeTm, MiMo, various other combinations of things I think might utilize unarmed well. Which they do; the unarmed isn't the problem, it's just that they can't really take a hit, or do enough burst damage when something serious like an ogre comes along. Doing a KeBe right now, works alright, the berserk gets him out of any pinch he's in, the trouble is basically in just keeping him fed at the right level - same problem any berserker has to consider unless they're kobolds or trolls. Here's to hoping I find an amulet of gourmand.

And yeah I'm aware that I'm letting a lot of god gifts go to waste. -_- I'm hoping to pick up some kind of ranged supplement, maybe he'll help me out with that.

[joellercoaster]

If you like unarmed combat but are having trouble making it work on its own, SETm are awesome. They have handy backup abilities that can get you out of jams, and help you get through the part when you're young and fragile and just karate-chopping things isn't enough.

In particular, Evaporate with potions of confusion is a good panic button, and with potions of poison for the things like Ogres that you can't risk mashing you with a club even when they're confused. You end up with massive piles pretty quickly of both,through Fulsome Distillation of goblins and kobolds, respectively.

By the end of the game, my last one had Unarmed at 27 and was taking down Orbs of Fire with it... in groups.

[Zicher]

Speaking of SETm - what would be a good god for one? Oka? Chei? Sif?

[Stormfox]

I tend to use Sif with my transmuters (because I get a lot of Earth Magic built up, and I want to branch out into things like Petrify/LRD). Chei would be an interesting option if you were going primarily melee with your spells as backup.

Okie's weapon gifts would be wasted on a melee transmuter, but the armour would be okay as long as you're not transformed. Poor third choice overall.

There's Makhleb...well, Makhleb works for almost anyone.

[joellercoaster]

Chei would be an interesting option if you were going primarily melee with your spells as backup.

+1

Nothing says 'truly absurd damage output' like a 5-slot Ponderous Chei worshipper with Blade Hands.

Step From Time is a perfect complement for that, when all the massacring inevitably goes to your head and you find yourself surrounded by the Big and the Bad

[Zicher]

Chei would be an interesting option if you were going primarily melee with your spells as backup.

+1

Nothing says 'truly absurd damage output' like a 5-slot Ponderous Chei worshipper with Blade Hands.

Testified! I had one who met quite an early hydra, and with help of potion of might, I cut the hydra in half with one swipe .

[vintermann]

Testified! I had one who met quite an early hydra, and with help of potion of might, I cut the hydra in half with one swipe .

Going toe-to-toe with a hydra with blade hands wouldn't usually be consided a good idea, but...

[joellercoaster]

It is if you want to ensure you have a really vicious undead servant.

[Zicher]

Testified! I had one who met quite an early hydra, and with help of potion of might, I cut the hydra in half with one swipe .

Going toe-to-toe with a hydra with blade hands wouldn't usually be consided a good idea, but...

With damage output that high, you can easily outdamage the head regrowth (if you can stand the damage, of course).
And the undead servant sounde really, really interesting.

[GermanJoey]

Vampire's teeth attack is weak early but gets very powerful later, since its base damage is directly dependent on your unarmed skill.

Also, if you're turning off stealth maybe you should pick a class other than vampire, that's like the best thing about them. In my opinion, its bad playing to turn of stealth on any character except heavy-armour wearers, ogres, centaurs, and trolls, even if you never plan to stab an enemy. Being able to pick and choose your fights when enemies first enter LOS is an immense tactical advantage!

[GermanJoey]

Speaking of SETm - what would be a good god for one? Oka? Chei? Sif?

Kiku! Kiku! SETm of kiku is as classic and as powerful a combo as they come!

[Zicher]

Speaking of SETm - what would be a good god for one? Oka? Chei? Sif?

Kiku! Kiku! SETm of kiku is as classic and as powerful a combo as they come!

Sounds fine, will try .

[vintermann]

With damage output that high, you can easily outdamage the head regrowth (if you can stand the damage, of course).

Sigh, I tried this yesterday: Oka's heroism + potion of strength + berserk, with a +2 +4 battleaxe against a 6-headed hydra. It almost worked, but the 11-headed hydra fled - when I walked one square up to hit it, it had regenerated enough to regain its courage, turn around and hit me for its worst hit by far...

[szanth]

I think the potion and berserk overlap in the 'might' category. Maybe a potion of agility would've been more effective to dodge.

[LunarHarp]

Note also Monk + confusing touch is amazing.

[szanth]

Is it really that much better than anything + confuse?

[vintermann]

Is it really that much better than anything + confuse?

Confusing touch does not check magic resistance, but is based on HD.

[szanth]

Which means what? It won't work on monsters with no MR because they're too powerful in general?

[Zicher]

Which means what? It won't work on monsters with no MR because they're too powerful in general?

Exactly that.

# Chance of confusing if hit = (30-HD)/30 if monster is natural, (22-HD)/22 otherwise.

[szanth]

Yeah that sounds worse. Least when relying on MR you can affect enemies into the late game so long as they have low MR; pretty much every monster late-game will have a high HD.

[Kate]

I think you're misunderstanding. Confusing Touch tends to work quite reliably throughout the game because MR soars absurdly high later on, whereas HD increases at a much more reasonable rate.

[LunarHarp]

Also because you can get free off hand unarmed attacks at relatively fast speed at higher levels of UC monks end up making quite a few checks with to confuse the enemy while at the same time doing the damage you would be doing normally. So even if the confusing touch check fails each time for the duration, you are still spending the time beating up your enemy.

[varkarrus]

IMO, Stave usage should gain strength from unarmed combat, too.