Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 6

Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 07:43

Post Saturday, 9th June 2012, 13:18

Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

I want to try out a fighter/mage hybrid. I am the opinion that hard to play characters are forcing a more careful and slow playstyle,so a better learning of the game u hope.

So why i was starting with Ashenzari:

Hope to get wide spread skill boosts for the wide spread skills.

So why Ice elementalist:

Freeze for early killing and slowing, Ozocubu Armour for the lacking armour, Codensation Shield for some defense when using two-handers....

Yet open questions
So one of the questions for this build is, what is the best weapon. But remember Ashenzari likes cursed weapon,but you can't butcher with everyone. I could cast Tukimas Dance AFTER!!! a fighter to fight the weapon (perhaps giant spiked club), butcher the corpses and rewield it. Or should i try out two handed polearms, which would allow butchering ? Questions over questions....

How can i keep my ice armour and shields alive if i run into fire spitters ?

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.10.2-39-gab10c79 character file.

Knacks the Basher (Ogre Ice Elementalist)          Turns: 33827, Time: 04:41:47

HP  37/137       AC  9     Str 17      XL: 14   Next: 85%
MP   7/31        EV 10     Int 21      God: Ashenzari [**....]
Gold 1243        SH  0     Dex  9      Spells:  5 memorised, 20 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .    t - +0 giant club
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : + .  S - +0 troll leather armour (curse)
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : .    (shield restricted)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    (helmet restricted)
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : +    (no cloak)
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    (gloves unavailable)
Sust.Abil.: + .     Stasis     : .    (boots unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    g - amulet of warding
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    y - cursed ring "Pochoen" {SustAb Int+3 Dam+2}
Saprovore : + . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    j - +3 ring of protection

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, clarity, fast metabolism 1, saprovore 1, tough skin 1,
evolution 1, Int +1, Dex -1
a: Renounce Religion


You are on level 15 of the Dungeon.
You worship Ashenzari.
Ashenzari is most pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 24 of its levels.

You have collected 1312 gold pieces.
You have spent 89 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 i - the sabre of Bloodstone {flame, Str+4 Dex-2}
   (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It emits flame when wielded, causing extra injury to most foes and up to
   double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. Big, fiery blades
   are also staple armaments of hydra-hunters.
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (-2).
 m - an uncursed dagger of returning (quivered)
 t - a +0,+0 giant club (weapon)
 P - the sling "Chuovi" {flame, Int+3}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It turns projectiles fired from it into bolts of flame.
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
Missiles
 n - 26 arrows
 s - 47 sling bullets
 w - 31 stones
 B - 16 runed bolts
 D - 7 darts
Armour
 S - a cursed +0 troll leather armour (worn)
Magical devices
 d - a tapered bone wand
 e - a wand of slowing (2)
Comestibles
 c - 2 meat rations
 k - 10 bread rations
 x - 2 apricots
 z - 2 honeycombs
Scrolls
 b - a scroll labeled PSUSUL LIJUAMA
 l - a scroll of enchant armour
Jewellery
 g - an amulet of warding (around neck)
 j - a +3 ring of protection (left hand)
 y - the cursed ring "Pochoen" (right hand) {SustAb Int+3 Dam+2}
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of sustain abilities]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+2).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 A - an uncursed ring of ice
Potions
 a - a red potion {tried by monster}
 f - a potion of curing
 h - a bubbling clear potion
 o - a gluggy brown potion
 p - an orange potion
 q - a blue potion
 r - a silvery potion
Books
 u - a book of War Chants   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Fire Brand                         Charms/Fire                  2
   Freezing Aura                      Charms/Ice                   2
   Shroud of Golubria                 Charms/Translocation         2
   Repel Missiles                     Charms/Air                   2
   Poison Weapon                      Charms/Poison                3
   Regeneration                       Charms/Necromancy            3


   Skills:
 - Level 12,0 Fighting
 - Level 12,0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 2,0 Throwing
 - Level 6,0 Armour
 - Level 6,0 Dodging
 - Level 1,5 Stealth
 + Level 6,0 Traps & Doors
 - Level 2,1 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 11,0 Spellcasting
 - Level 0,6 Conjurations
 + Level 5,1 Hexes
 - Level 6,0 Charms
 - Level 6,0 Transmutations
 + Level 11,0 Ice Magic


You have 20 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Freeze                Ice            #####        1%          1    None
b - Ozocubu's Armour      Ice/Chrm       ######....   1%          3    None
c - Condensation Shield   Ice/Trmt       ######....   1%          4    Strawberry
d - See Invisible         Chrm           ######....   6%          4    Strawberry
e - Tukima's Dance        Hex            #####.....   2%          3    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/27)            Temple (1/1) D:7            Lair (8/8) D:12
 Shoals (0/5) Lair:4        Snake (0/5) Lair:4     
   Orc: D:6-11       Slime: Lair:6-8     Vault: D:14-19     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
The Shining One
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin

Shops:
D:6: /  D:10: [  D:14: *  D:15: /

Portals:
Trove: D:14 (give +4 storm dragon armour)

Annotations
D:4 Pikel
D:12 exclusion: silver statue
Lair:4 exclusion: oklob plant
Lair:7 exclusion: 2 oklob plants


                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have a fast metabolism.
You can tolerate rotten meat.
You have tough skin (AC +1).
You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.
Your mind is acute (Int +1).
You are clumsy (Dex -1).
You evolve.


Message History

The slime creature is almost dead.
Casting: Freeze
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Freeze
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - slime creature
Aim: a slime creature (almost dead, retreating)
You freeze the slime creature.
You kill the slime creature!
Your icy armour starts to melt.
You see here an uncursed short sword.
Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You continue eating.
Your icy armour evaporates.
You finish eating. Mmm...Wensleydale.
You see here an uncursed short sword.
2 slime creatures come into view.
Welcome back, Knacks the Ogre Ice Elementalist.
Ashenzari says: Partake of my vision. Partake of my curse.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Unknown command.

 #.#   .###* ###..
 #.# , ,..........
##.#   * .JJ.#####
#..# * * JJ.   *
#.##     ...     *
#.# ,*  ,...
#)#   ,, ..#    ,
#.########.#   *,
#........#.# , ,,
####..@..#.#   * *
   #.....#.###
   ###...#...#
     #.....#.#
     #.....# #
     #.....+,   *
     ##....#** ,,
      #....#   ,
      #....#  *


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Jozef (Lair:1)
  6 hydras
  12 death yaks
  2 catoblepae
  2 hill giants
  An unseen horror (D:15)
  A necromancer (Lair:2)
  A griffon (Lair:8)
  2 cyclopes
  9 elephants
  2 elephant slugs
  8 spiny frogs
  A feature mimic (D:14)
  5 black mambas
  5 slime creatures
  6 ugly things (D:15)
  5 trolls
  A spriggan (D:14)
  8 komodo dragons
  A rock troll zombie (D:13)
  A polar bear (Lair:8)
  A two-headed ogre (D:13)
  A snapping turtle (Lair:4)
  15 blink frogs
  A basilisk (Lair:6)
  A grizzly bear (Lair:8)
  An elf (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  2 wyverns
  28 yaks
  3 vampire mosquitoes (D:13)
  3 manticores
  2 fire drakes
  A demigod (D:14)
  9 war dogs (Lair:3)
  Edmund (D:4)
  2 hungry ghosts
  7 hippogriffs
  A mottled dragon (D:15)
  A deep dwarf (D:14)
  3 black bears
  2 sky beasts
  A yellow wasp (D:14)
  9 ogres
  7 orc warriors
  3 phantoms
  2 giant goldfish (D:7)
  A tengu (D:14)
  4 ice beasts
  2 slaves
  8 crocodiles
  14 centaurs
  A yak skeleton (D:14)
  A wolf (Lair:2)
  Sigmund (D:7)
  A big kobold (D:15)
  Duvessa (D:7)
  The ghost of Polarkrake the Chiller, an average OpIE (D:3)
  A yellow wasp zombie (D:13)
  3 boring beetles
  A wandering mushroom (Lair:7)
  3 giant slugs
  12 giant frogs
  3 agate snails
  10 water moccasins
  A boulder beetle (Lair:7)
  15 wights
  A jellyfish (Lair:8)
  5 killer bees (D:10)
  3 grizzly bear simulacra (Lair:3)
  A shadow (D:14)
  4 crimson imps
  A quasit (D:9)
  Dowan (D:7)
  2 goliath beetles
  8 orc priests
  A big kobold skeleton (D:12)
  3 big fish
  11 hounds
  A hound skeleton (D:11)
  9 orc wizards
  4 porcupines
  9 worker ants
  10 iguanas
  3 scorpions
  19 sheep
  Ijyb (D:2)
  4 jellies
  5 hound simulacra (Lair:3)
  Terence (D:2)
  A goliath beetle zombie (D:9)
  17 adders
  A giant centipede zombie (D:9)
  35 green rats
  An adder skeleton (D:4)
  2 giant mites
  4 worms
  A sheep simulacrum (Lair:3)
  An ufetubus (D:12)
  A giant eyeball (D:12)
  5 giant geckos
  An ooze (D:1)
  36 orcs
  3 ball pythons
  28 bats
  8 giant cockroaches
  21 hobgoblins
  33 jackals
  20 kobolds
  14 quokkas
  10 giant newts
  20 goblins
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:5)
  A hobgoblin zombie (D:6)
  3 illusory rakshasas (D:11)
  A kobold skeleton (D:6)
  A kobold zombie (D:4)
  3 orc skeletons
  A quokka skeleton (D:5)
  25 rats
  2 rat simulacra (Lair:3)
  3 ballistomycetes (D:9)
  7 fungi
  11 plants
  6 toadstools
706 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A black mamba (Lair:7)
  A spiny frog (Lair:7)
  A blink frog (Lair:8)
  2 giant frogs
  A porcupine (Lair:7)
  9 green rats
  3 orcs
  A ball python (D:7)
  A goblin (D:7)
  A quokka (Lair:5)
  A giant spore (D:9)
  A hobgoblin zombie (D:7)
  An illusory rakshasa (D:11)
  2 rats (D:7)
  2 fungi
  9 plants
  9 toadstools
46 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 752 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Knacks, the Ogre Ice Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 3/3
   238 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 19/24 MP: 1/4
  1066 | D:2      | Noticed Ijyb
  1071 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 31/31 MP: 3/6
  1113 | D:2      | Killed Ijyb
  1113 | D:2      | Reached skill level 3 in Ice Magic
  1220 | D:2      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  1236 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Ice Magic
  1236 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 25/39 MP: 1/8
  1414 | D:2      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  1449 | D:2      | Noticed Terence
  1504 | D:2      | Killed Terence
  2039 | D:3      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  2114 | D:3      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  2291 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 45/45 MP: 6/9
  2369 | D:3      | Noticed Polarkrake's ghost (average OpIE)
  2384 | D:3      | Killed Polarkrake's ghost
  2384 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
  3037 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 53/53 MP: 7/11
  3121 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  3328 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Unarmed Combat
  3457 | D:4      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  3627 | D:4      | Noticed Pikel
  4045 | D:4      | Noticed Edmund
  4052 | D:4      | Killed Edmund
  4052 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 35/61 MP: 9/16
  4198 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4222 | D:5      | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour
  4352 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  4359 | D:5      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  4666 | D:5      | Got a crystal sling
  4953 | D:6      | Reached skill level 6 in Ice Magic
  5114 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 64/71 MP: 12/18
  5278 | D:6      | Found Mnaag's Magical Wand Boutique.
  5297 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  5625 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5755 | D:7      | Noticed Duvessa
  5756 | D:7      | Noticed Dowan
  5779 | D:7      | Killed Duvessa
  5799 | D:7      | Killed Dowan
  5814 | D:7      | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
  5911 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  6122 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Ashenzari the Shackled
  6391 | D:7      | Noticed Sigmund
  6403 | D:7      | Killed Sigmund
  6403 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
  6632 | D:7      | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
  6974 | D:7      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  7336 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 53/87 MP: 13/19
  7341 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Traps & Doors
  7842 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
  7842 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  8199 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
  8698 | D:8      | Noticed a cyclops
  8894 | D:8      | Killed a cyclops
  8894 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
  8894 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 42/97 MP: 9/21
  8921 | D:8      | You fall through a shaft!
  9117 | D:9      | Got an uncursed sparkling turquoise ring
  9181 | D:9      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  9312 | D:9      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  9815 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  9939 | D:10     | Found Namaraun's Armour Boutique.
  9965 | D:10     | Bought a cursed +0 animal skin for 4 gold pieces
 10826 | Temple   | Identified the ring "Pochoen" (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
 11125 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
 11429 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 11905 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Maces & Flails
 12007 | D:11     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 96/105 MP: 20/23
 13020 | Temple   | Learned a level 4 spell: Condensation Shield
 13024 | Temple   | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute (Int +1).
 13568 | D:12     | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
 13587 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 13824 | D:12     | Reached skill level 1 in Transmutations
 14877 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 15332 | Lair:1   | Noticed Jozef
 15494 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 11 in Maces & Flails
 15857 | Lair:1   | Killed Jozef
 15857 | Lair:1   | Identified the cursed +1 robe "Katsah" (You took it off Jozef on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 17893 | D:11     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 106/115 MP: 26/26
 18957 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 12 in Maces & Flails
 19102 | Lair:3   | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 19442 | Lair:3   | Acquired Ashenzari's first power
 20475 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 20773 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
 21038 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 21875 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Traps & Doors
 23566 | Lair:6   | Found a frozen archway.
 24161 | Lair:7   | Noticed a wandering mushroom
 24208 | Lair:7   | Killed a wandering mushroom
 24242 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 24242 | Lair:7   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 111/124 MP: 7/28
 24915 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 25765 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 27399 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 10 in Ice Magic
 28636 | Lair:7   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 103/137 MP: 1/30
 29267 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 29546 | Lair:7   | HP: 4/137 [death yak (12)]
 29867 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 4 spell: See Invisible
 31241 | D:14     | Entered Level 14 of the Dungeon
 31294 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.
 31294 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You evolve.
 31294 | D:14     | Lost mutation: Your mind is acute (Int +1).
 31317 | D:14     | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 31831 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Tukima's Dance
 31839 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: You are clumsy (Dex -1).
 31839 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute (Int +1).
 32024 | D:14     | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
 32065 | D:14     | Found Yghaytra's General Store.
 32071 | D:14     | Bought a wand of slowing (2) for 51 gold pieces
 32071 | D:14     | Bought a potion of curing for 34 gold pieces
 32110 | D:14     | Got the sabre of Bloodstone {flame, Str+4 Dex-2}
 32629 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 32636 | D:15     | Found Muitahoo's Magical Wand Shoppe.
 32765 | D:15     | HP: 6/137 [poisoned by a green ugly thing]
 33251 | D:14     | HP: 5/137 [troll (9)]
 33797 | D:15     | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2229

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Saturday, 9th June 2012, 13:40

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

Animate skeleton is a lv.1 spell which can be cast by nearly everyone and creates chunks to eat - that's why is often found near ash's overflow altar.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Snake Sneak

Posts: 109

Joined: Monday, 17th October 2011, 20:36

Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 20:31

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

if you run into fire spitter cast repel missles :D obviously you will have to find this spell.

but there are a lot of good low level spells which will help you beef up your defenses / survivability.

Your post makes me want to try an OgIE... sounds fun !

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 22nd June 2012, 00:09

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

ogres with a decent amount of dodging + repel missiles can dodge a fair amount of projectiles. It'll never be that high, but decent. You'll probably be in robes or troll leather armor for the early game, and never more than a -3ev dragon armor late game - or stick with robes/mottled, nothing wrong with that. So you will need the EV. Dodging is only -1 but the main problem is the large size penalty.

Focus on low level buff spells like regeneration, swiftness, flight, repel missiles, shroud, ice armor, fire/ice brands, abjuration (handy but a decent exp sink in order to get decent spell power - questionable). You probably don't want to branch into high level spells except perhaps for haste, but even then, it's harder to do on an ogre.

Do note that while very possible the build you're trying is definitely one that I would consider a challenging build - there are much easier options out there.
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Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Sunday, 8th July 2012, 01:12

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

Don't even go for dodging with an ogre. There is no such thing as an ogre with a decent amount of dodging.
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt
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Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1249

Joined: Sunday, 18th September 2011, 02:11

Post Tuesday, 10th July 2012, 15:42

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

twelwe wrote:Don't even go for dodging with an ogre. There is no such thing as an ogre with a decent amount of dodging.

http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/nht ... 072649.txt
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/panta ... 162707.txt
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/jle ... 193801.txt
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/pivot ... 102633.txt
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/jle ... 212813.txt

Note that I got these by going through the list of high-scoring ogres; I'm sure that there are a lot of better examples, but I didn't feel like finding them.

In other words: Ogres can get perfectly respectable EV. Dodging is often a very good idea on an ogre.

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CommanderC

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Tuesday, 10th July 2012, 17:36

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

Blade wrote:http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/nht/morgue-nht-20100805-072649.txt
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/panta ... 162707.txt
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/jle ... 193801.txt
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/pivot ... 102633.txt
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/jle ... 212813.txt

Note that I got these by going through the list of high-scoring ogres; I'm sure that there are a lot of better examples, but I didn't feel like finding them.

In other words: Ogres can get perfectly respectable EV. Dodging is often a very good idea on an ogre.


The first one of those is a super-old file which contains +EV items that can no longer generate outside of wizmode. +EV is no longer a random artefact property.

The next three lucked into a ring with a high EV bonus, like the Ring of Shaolin or a ring of evasion +6, and then stacked it with Phase Shift. Neither +EV on artefacts nor the EV bonus from Phase Shift are multiplied by dexterity or your dodging skill, so even if you happen to find these things it won't matter if you were training dodging before then.

The last one only has 23EV, and they fed *all* of their discretionary stat points into dexterity. None spared for intelligence, and the player actually managed to fail to have enough strength on an ogre for golden dragon armour. 23EV isn't really all that special.

In conclusion, your data points seem to support the other side. Ogres that get moderate or better EV don't do it with dodging skill, and ogres that go as far as they can with dodging skill don't end up with moderate or better EV.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Tuesday, 10th July 2012, 19:13

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

Consider that a Ogre with 27 Dodging, base dex and a robe has 19 EV. With those basis, I believe it's much better to train spellcasting and traslocation, getting phase shift, blink, ctele, c-blink and maybe having some more spare experience points to put somewhere else.
Or you can going chei, which gives enough dex to offset the large size malus (for example, this one has a decent 33 ev for 27 dodging: http://crawlus.somatika.net/dumps/pubby ... 125550.txt )
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 17

Joined: Wednesday, 9th May 2012, 06:55

Post Tuesday, 10th July 2012, 23:37

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

god, you shall know ogre caster can go spider form and ice form, both get your size down. Ice form especially suitable here. dodging isn't out-of-question. 11 dodging with spider form offer me roughly 30 EV as ogtm.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Wednesday, 11th July 2012, 00:05

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

Ice form is ogre-size I think....

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archl

Spider Stomper

Posts: 243

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2011, 14:04

Post Wednesday, 11th July 2012, 14:19

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

I agree with Blade. IMO Ogres should train dodging as much as a normal-sized character would do. It's true that Ogres suffer a initial -2 EV penalty which is considerable at beginning of the game, but the amount of evasion an Ogre can obtain from training Dodging is almost the same a normal sized character can get.

Some maths:
  • Human: EV = 10 + (7 + Dodging*Dex)/20
  • Ogre: EV = 8 + (7 + Dodging*Dex)/22

The difference between 1/20 and 1/22 is quite small (10%). For example, a human with Dex=15 and Dodging=27 gets 21 points of evasion from Dodging skill; an Ogre gets 19 points.

This is true only for characters wearing light armour. If we are talking about heavy armour then the differences are even smaller. In GDA, a human with maxed skills and Dex=15 only has two more points of evasion than an Ogre.

I'm not saying that Ogres should be training Dodging before M&F, or something like that. I'm saying that for Ogres the Dodging skill is as useful as it is for most races, and most of the EV penalty comes from the initial offset, not the Dodging penalty.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Wednesday, 11th July 2012, 14:47

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

Yes, but you're not considering two other points: firstly, OgWz, OgBe and OgHu (the three suggested backgrounds) have respectively 8, 9 and 10 in dexterity. With 27 dodging while wearing a robe you get a total of 19, 20, 21 EV. It isn't *so* bad, but isn't so great either. Secondly, Og usually tend to wear dragon armours, so the benefits of dodging are minor - like any other race.

Personally, I'd put stat point into int, and invest just in armour, wearing a fda - or a gda if I don't plan to cast nothing - but I haven't yet win with a ogre, so you should weigh my words.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Spider Stomper

Posts: 243

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2011, 14:04

Post Wednesday, 11th July 2012, 16:44

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

Each player has his own preferences. My characters always train dodging even when they are wearing CPA or GDA. BTW, not casting spells in heavy armour is silly. Recently, I played a ghoul that found a CPA, and only needed 18 levels in Charms, ~12 in Spellcasting and wizardry to use Haste in CPA.

nago, if you were playing a character that only plans to cast Haste and CBlink, would you still choose to raise INT in every occasion?

Many of the backgrounds not suggested by the game are perfectly viable. Actually, Ogres are better than humans in all of them as long you remember to play as an Ogre.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Wednesday, 11th July 2012, 19:42

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

CommanderC wrote:Each player has his own preferences. My characters always train dodging even when they are wearing CPA or GDA. BTW, not casting spells in heavy armour is silly. Recently, I played a ghoul that found a CPA, and only needed 18 levels in Charms, ~12 in Spellcasting and wizardry to use Haste in CPA.


Reaching those levels in a 3 runes game with a race with quite bad apts in charms like Og means a lot of experience points (and ok, you're talking of a cpa, a gda probably would require about 14-15 points in charms). I surely prefer to rely on potions and wands of hasting, and invest those points in others skills - but I know this probably isn't the optimal choice, as generally speaking the 50% bonus of hasting is far greater from the benefits having put some points in other skills.

nago, if you were playing a character that only plans to cast Haste and CBlink, would you still choose to raise INT in every occasion?


If I'm playing a character like this, yes because surely I'd know at least swiftness, repel missile, phase shift, control teleport, apportation, regeneration and maybe some others very good spell I'm forgetting for which spellpower is useful. If necessary, I'd only put the required points in STR to wear the chosen armor.

Many of the backgrounds not suggested by the game are perfectly viable. Actually, Ogres are better than humans in all of them as long you remember to play as an Ogre.


I know, but that was the short answers. As I'm a tedious person, now I've checked all Ogre combo: the maximum starting dex they can have is 12 as Monk, and 11 as Stalker (which both could be interesting choice).
With the former, you can have 24 with 27 dodging - too low for my tastes. I'd still go only with armor, but with those value is surely a personal choice and not a general rule.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 17

Joined: Wednesday, 9th May 2012, 06:55

Post Friday, 13th July 2012, 06:36

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

OgBe, I raise dex to 10, and with multiple artifacts, I get 19 in DEX, and trained Shield and Dodging to 15 and 13. now 21 EV when holding a spriggan's knife, +4 Dex +4 EV .

Mainly throwing in combat.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 85

Joined: Sunday, 15th April 2012, 08:40

Post Friday, 13th July 2012, 13:10

Re: Ogre Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari

archl wrote:OgBe, I raise dex to 10, and with multiple artifacts, I get 19 in DEX, and trained Shield and Dodging to 15 and 13. now 21 EV when holding a spriggan's knife, +4 Dex +4 EV .

Mainly throwing in combat.


OgBe with a little knife looks pathetic :)

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