Some advice for melee minotaurs/Ds needed.

[dmurray]

Just a quick question about Demonspawns: none of the mutations can get attacks like a Minotaur's headbutt? If not, are Ds actually *bad* beyond the worse apts/XP needed?
Basically I like the use of the reactionary headbutt, it helps a lot. Does it happen everytime I get attacked in melee (as in, it has a chance to trigger for each enemy that attacks me)? Does unarmed combat help it at all? I have no idea what skills to go for either. I heard shields are good for three runners but I also got told an executioners (sp?) is better and to use that if I want axes.
For weapons I usually go with polearms since they have that extra reach and get in an extra attack but if I do get a demon trident and if I had a large shield, would I see any major problems compared to if I choose to go with a demon trident and no shield? I know they're one and a half handed and it's technically *better* without a shield but is it enough to justify going without a shield?
In terms of skills, what should I train (other than getting to min skill)? Is heavy armour better than light; I know it helps dodging and stealth but will it affect my headbutt at all? And traps/doors are needed at 15 to detect Zot traps, right?

Does increasing skill beyond minimum weapon delay help? For example, if a whip needed 10 skill points, would it be better to increase my skill beyond that (if I ever only planned on using a whip)?
What about attributes? Do I just put enough to use heavy armour and then the rest in dex?
And finally, do polearms have any disadvantages? For example, blades are bad against hydras (unless flaming). Do polearms have any monsters that you shouldn't use them on?

Oh and apart from Trog and Oka, what would be the next best god for a minotaur? I'm thinking of going as a monk and then seeing how I get along with weapons and then choosing a god. I do like Mahkleb just because, it's sort of nice having the blasts and the demons aren't too bad with high evocs. And the tier 1 demons do time out eventually, right? So I could summon one, tell it to (w)ait and just let it roam wherever and then continue on?

[bobross419]

For a 3-runer a shield is fine. Its really when you get to extended where you start hitting a lot of enemies that ignore shields, if you're just doing 3 rune then you can really do it either way... Even though everyone says that shields aren't worth it in extended, I still like to use one - Keep in mind that this is contrary to optimal play/advice. If you do choose to go without a shield then upgrade to the bigger 2-hand polearms.

Re: Hydra, if your polearm deals slashing damage then it will cut off Hydra heads. If its a huge concern then keep a spear/trident handy, but you can usually drop Hydra pretty easily with Javelins or Wands.

Don't worry about spending exp on weapon skills beyond Min Delay. Theres lots of other stuff that benefits you more (Armor/Dodge, Fighting, Invo/Evo [Depending on your god], Spellcasting, or even a few points in a Ranged skill). General recommendation for T&D is 10.

For a Mino Heavy Armour is usually better, but I've found that one of the Non-Gold Dragon Armours with a healthy dose of both Armor and Dodge skills works best for me.

[rebthor]

Headbutt is Mi only. It has a chance to process only on a successful dodge. As far as I know, if you're getting attacked by 8 guys and dodge them all, you have a chance to headbutt each one.

1.5 handers, like the demon trident can be used the same as 1 handers with a shield. They just have a slight additional penalty until the shield is fully trained. Knowledge bot entry (which took a while to track down) is 1.5-handed gets significant penalties if you have a shield (and if you don't, why don't you use 2-handed?) ... crawl-speak for "one-handed but we like to confuse people"

Heavy armour vs. light armour is really a personal choice. For most minotaurs playing a straight melee game, you'll have enough XP by the end of the game to have fully trained dodging and armour. If you're not planning on casting spells (e.g. Trog), heavy armour is probably "better."

Improving weapon skill beyond what is needed for min-delay does increase accuracy and damage. However, most of the time the XP is better spent elsewhere until near the end of the game because you're better off with a character that has a demon whip at min delay and 15 dodging and 5 fighting than you are with M&F at 27 and 0 dodging and 0 fighting.

If you are not planning on casting spells, then you should put all level ups into dex for the dodging boost. Otherwise int is by far the most useful.

Some polearms are bladed and will chop off hydra heads. Some will not.

If you're planning on fighting unarmed, then fight unarmed. There's really no point in putting 20 levels of unarmed skill into a minotaur and then switching to a weapon.

For Mahkleb, summon before you're in a fight. If you get a hostile 1, summon more to help you take care of the issue.

[crate]

I will answer a few things because you are asking too many questions for me to consider answering them all

2-handed weapons are very nearly always better than one-hander plus shield once you are standing next to an enemy assuming you are actually trying to kill the enemy (for characters who don't mind putting a lot of xp into weapon skill at least). If you have good positioning this means that shields are really not very good. Most players are not very good at positioning, but I still recommend using a twohander and getting better at positioning instead of using a shield.

All body slot mutations except claws and antennae give an auxiliary attack; these do not at all depend on any skill. They might depend on stats but if so the effect is minimal so don't worry about it. The retaliation headbutt is unique to minotaurs.

Trog and okawaru are not the only gods who are good for Mi. Depending on what you want to do most of the gods can be useful: Nemelex, TSO, Makhleb, Fedhas, Elyvilon, Jiyva, Ash are all gods I would probably use on some minotaurs.

[kefir645]

Unarmed Minotaurs are all kinds of fun. Unarmed in general is pretty great. Not that I think that shields are that useful (getting a strong ranged option is much better xp investment in my opinion), but wearing shield and having better base damage then GSC is pretty nice. Demonspawn's Unarmed has the potential to be even better in late game with claws 3.

[cerebovssquire]

Base damage is multiplied. Just looking at GSC and thinking "22 base damage" and then doing a 3+27=30 calculation and thinking "UC is 30" doesn't work. At appropriate skill levels, the big two-handers have weapon base damage that exceeds 30, and this will be noticeable if you look at the damage your different characters are dealing with various types of weapons/UC.

[rebthor]

Base damage is multiplied. Just looking at GSC and thinking "22 base damage" and then doing a 3+27=30 calculation and thinking "UC is 30" doesn't work. At appropriate skill levels, the big two-handers have weapon base damage that exceeds 30, and this will be noticeable if you look at the damage your different characters are dealing with various types of weapons/UC.

True, but GSC has a min delay of .7 turns and unarmed of .5 so there is that to take into account as well. I don't think it fully makes up for the damage multiplier on non-forms combat, but it does make it at least competitive.

[BlackSheep]

There's also the part about being able to use a large shield while unarmed.

[CommanderC]

I did these tests some time ago. The defender is always a stone giant.

1) UC: 27, Fighting: 27, Str: 24, Dragon Form

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     50,6 |    163 |      94% |  48,1 |    0,5 |     96,1


2) UC: 27, Figthing: 27, Str:24, Statue Form

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     47,2 |    156 |      96% |  45,4 |    0,7 |     60,6


3) M&F: 27, Fighting: 27, Str: 24, +9,+9 GSC of speed

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     21,9 |     89 |      93% |  20,5 |    0,4 |     51,2


4) M&F: 27, Fighting: 27, Str: 24, +9,+9 GSC of speed, Statue Form

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     34,7 |    137 |      93% |  32,4 |    0,6 |     54,0


Of course, one should be careful when reading these results. The power of brands like distortion or vampiricism can't be seen in these (silly) tests. IMHO distortion is the most powerful melee attack in the game.

[kefir645]

Unarmed can't have brands or enchantments. So basically it has to have the best base damage in the game, otherwise it'd be useless without forms or certain mutations. As for shields, for what it's worth with TSO you can have, say, +9,+9 GSC {holy} and 50+ SH with Divine Shield.

[royalty118]

I like Makhleb as a MiFi because it doesn't take long to get greater summons which can really help you. You'll get there in no time if you make sure to sacrifice all bodies. The lesser someones are pretty good as well. I've also used the big and little conjurations he grants to weaken approaching monsters.

[tasonir]

I'd like to see an entry for flaming/freezing (either, just need one) GSC added to the list, because speed is lowering your damage per hit. Of course if you look at damage per time it's a huge increase

Maybe also a holy weapon vs a skeletal warrior or similiar-to-stone-giant demon. If I wasn't lazy I suppose I could do the test myself

[CommanderC]

Sure. It's very easy and quick to do.

1) unbranded +9 GSC vs skeletal warrior

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     24,0 |     97 |      78% |  18,9 |    0,7 |     27,0


2) +9 GSC (flame) vs skeletal warrior

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     29,9 |    127 |      77% |  23,2 |    0,7 |     33,1


3) +9 GSC (speed) vs skeletal warrior

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     20,8 |     88 |      77% |  16,3 |    0,4 |     40,6


4) +9 GSC (holy) vs skeletal warrior

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     41,0 |    230 |      77% |  31,8 |    0,7 |     45,5