Mix and Mash?

[libelnon]

I've just picked up DCSS for the first (few) time(s) and I've got to say, I'm impressed. For a game that seemed to play like a Nethack clone to start with, I've fallen in love... perhaps because Nethack was so insanely difficult?

Anyway. I've played through a few games, getting as deep as the Orc Mines, the Lair, and deep enough to see my latest characters (HESk, KoAs) down as far as D:8, with between 2500 points to 5000. Nothing special, but a definite improvement over my first game... 102...

The assassin was a bit of a pushover, he just got really lucky with the cards (Nemlex Xobeh) and found a Deck of Wonders, drawing about 4 Experience cards from it and ending up with godly stats, before getting swallowed by an orc horde.

In my latest game, with the HESk, I managed to get myself quite far into the dungeon in search of phat lewtz and stumbled across Psyche on D:8, spent most of the time running around the level from her with my bow and longsword (enchanted accordingly via war chants) until I eventually got banished to the abyss by her dagger of distortion. Spent a good 1000 turns there, too, searching for an exit, before I finally got fried by an orange demon.

What surprised me about the HESk was the ability I had to mix and match my favourite traits of all 4 different playstyles (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue) into one coherent character who actually packed a punch. Combining Fighting, Armour, and Long Blades of a fighter, Stealth, Stabbing, Bows and Doors and Traps of a rogue, and Spellcasting, Hexes, Charms and Evocation from the wizard, and was considering taking a god with that character, although finding one to fit seems a bit daunting. And what's more, all of my skills had a decent aptitude!... Okay, apart from the stabbing.

So, I'll ask a few questions on this: Has anyone else had (moderate) success with more of a jack-of-all-trades character? Any tips for improving that build? And any ideas on what god would suit such a character?

[bobross419]

Its generally better to focus on one or two skills at a time... basically pick a goal (cast spell x at % success rate, get weapon to minimum delay, get spell x hungerless, etc) and only turn on that skill. Fighting and T&D for instance don't yield a whole lot in returns early on and you can usually wait until XL10ish or so before you start training them. Weapon to minimum delay if you are going melee/hybrid is one of the best investments you can make.

I've always liked Okawaru as a solid all around god for melee and hybrids... He gives armor, weapon, and ammo gifts... his invocations are really great and his piety is easy to build.

[rebthor]

I think you'll find that the best players here focus early on a playstyle with their character. After they've risen above the initial difficulty hump, they then branch out into other areas. This means that you may have a "jack-of-all trades" character later on in the game, but in the beginning it is far more important to focus on one style in order to get to that point.

For a melee character, that involves getting your weapon to mindelay, getting armour or dodging online.

For a spell caster it's similar - getting a bread and butter spell, then a big gun spell. Then moving the big gun to bread and butter and getting a new big gun.

Also important, just as in any roguelike is the ability to deal with what the RNG has given you. You may have chosen to come into the dungeon as a HESk, but if you find a dagger of pain on that D:2 kobold, maybe it's better to transition into a stealthy stabber.

[mageykun]

Welcome to the forum, to the game, and all that jazz.

Okay, there are roles / builds you can adopt in this game, but they don't quite match the sync with the classic 4 (It's more like... melee, caster, hybrid, ranged, stabber. With lots of room for further hybridization, and some smaller niche roles). First up, pretty much every character who can (demigods can't) should take a god, as soon as is reasonably possible (sometimes you'll decide it's worth waiting for a god you've yet to find). So pretty much everyone is a cleric on some level, although the degree depends on the god (some have more intrusive conducts and abilities, drastically playstlye, and/or require micromanagement. Others largely take care of them selves). It can be tricky to figure out which god is right for you when you're first starting, but don't let that deter you!

Oka is pretty much the default melee god- he likes it when you kill, and when you (p)ray over corpses, hates it when you attack allies. Gifts equipment, and offers invokable buffs. If you want to focus more on casting, Sif is a good low maintenance god- She has an mp restore ability, gifts spell books, and only asks that you train casting skills. But you do have a lot of choices. Kiku for necro utility spells and the pain brand, Makhelb for demonic allies and hp for kills, Veh if you want pure offensive magic. Neme would work too, but she's kind of complicated and requires a lot of management to use to full effect. Ash is another that works well for almost anyone, but might be a little strange to get used to early on (curses used as a good thing).

Traps and doors don't make the thief. Again, this is a skill everyone picks up some levels in, in order to find, well, hidden traps and doors. A rogue would be more a stabbing build (using stealth, hexes, etc to catch enemies unawares for massive damage).

[XuaXua]

I thought we were supposed to wait till the dark blue squad posted their advice?

[BlackSheep]

Oh stop

[rebthor]

I thought we were supposed to wait till the dark blue squad posted their advice?

Well mageykun is green. Isn't that good enough for you?

[bobross419]

I thought we were supposed to wait till the dark blue squad posted their advice?

Well mageykun is green. Isn't that good enough for you?

Not everyone wants to wait hours for someone to show up... and the advice we gave the OP isn't bad advice.

[KoboldLord]

I thought we were supposed to wait till the dark blue squad posted their advice?

Don't be silly. Good advice is good, no matter who's giving it.

Hybrid playstyles are actually pretty tricky to get off the ground early, at least compared to most other backgrounds. Your skald's main goal should be getting weapon skill up for minimum delay, but you also want Shroud of Golubria and Poison Weapon usable as soon as possible, and that skill dilution can really hurt when you face off against harder opponents like uniques or moderately out of depth monsters. You won't have much xp to spare developing other aspects of your character until later on, so you have to make it all count. There are quite a few strong and simple options for deity choice for a skald character, but most of them involve broadening your options by training just one additional skill.

Kiku provides a line of necromancy spells, which include the ranged attack your skald is sorely missing and several that create versatile minions that will keep monsters from hitting you. Even if they don't actually deal much damage in combat, a few weak skeletons that trail after you will let you escape from a scary monster almost guaranteed, because you can just shove the skeletons in the way and run while they get slaughtered. At maximum piety you can upgrade to a pain-branded weapon, which immediately puts most weapons into the absolute top tier of damage output for the bulk of the game.

Yredelemnul is another necro-themed deity, but you train invocations instead of necromancy. You don't get quite as much versatility as with Kiku, but her invocations are really good if you remember to use them, and eventually she permanently airdrops in some of the strongest undead brutes in the game as allies for you.

Makhleb is another invocations deity, and arguably one of the strongest in the game. You get ranged attack invocations and minion-summoning invocations, with only the drawback that sometimes the summoned minions turn on you. Use them before you get into trouble, so you can get yourself out of trouble if they decide to help the other side.

Elyvilon is often overlooked as an option for skalds, but she's really, really strong for almost any character that trains invocations moderately. Backed up with a decent invocations skill, her healing abilities become functional instakills against most animals and humanoids of the same race as you. Plus there's the self-healing and invincibility invocations, but never mind those. Ranged instakills are where it's at. She doesn't like Regeneration, but she's totally okay with poison, so her conducts shouldn't really be too burdensome for you.

Okawaru is a bit of an oddball for skalds, since she boosts your specialty rather than giving you additional options, but she's good enough at that job to be worth considering anyway. You'll probably want to pick up a sling, bow, or crossbow as soon as possible, and train and use it regularly. The key is Okawaru's Heroism invocation, which gives a temporary flat bonus to every combat skill you have. High levels are more expensive than low levels of skill, so Heroism effectively multiplies the amount of xp your character has spent on those skills several times over. And it's crazy-cheap. Its tiny, tiny piety cost will almost always pay for itself if you use it to fight, and you'll actually end up with more piety if you use it than if you do not. Eventually she starts keeping you well-stocked on ammo and other equipment.

Naturally, Nemelex, Ashenzari, and Fedhas can be pretty good for skalds too, but they're a bit trickier to learn.

[Grimm]

I thought we were supposed to wait till the dark blue squad posted their advice?

I know you're just degrading the signal to noise ratio in pursuit of yuks but let me clarify: the point of Counsellors is not that they should have either the first or the final say, it is simply that if an advice-storm occurs, an otherwise clueless player can pretty safely pick the advice of Counsellors out from the common ruck and be confident that it will be sound. That's all.

[XuaXua]

I thought we were supposed to wait till the dark blue squad posted their advice?

Well mageykun is green. Isn't that good enough for you?

Well, mageykun has a habit of making things up.

[libelnon]

Just as a sidenote, guys, I'm not a complete newbie - I've completed Castle of the Winds and played tons of Nethack, so I'm not exactly new to the genre. Just a heads up.

...Your skald's main goal should be getting weapon skill up for minimum delay, but you also want Shroud of Golubria and Poison Weapon usable as soon as possible, and that skill dilution can really hurt when you face off against harder opponents like uniques or moderately out of depth monsters.

It did take numerous tries to get that character off the ground, yes. Mainly because I got slaughtered early by getting surrounded. Too much noise, too used to being very stabby. Shame you can't #dip like in Nethack, which did make getting Poison Weapon quite crucial. Once I had Shroud of Golubria and Repel Missiles though, I did find my character to become a lot more resilient.

Kiku provides a line of necromancy spells, which include the ranged attack your skald is sorely missing and... output for the bulk of the game.

Actually, if you look, my Skald did have some apt skill in bows. Actually found that charms mixed with bows make some quite powerful ranged combos, but I've always been a fan of ranged attacks. The ability to 'choose' my enchantment via war chant was good, too. There is one for pain enchants should I need it, and as a Skald I found it preferable to stick to my well-enchanted (+3, +5) egoless longsword rather than the nifty Falchion of the Mosquito I found, purely because the Falchion was a unique weapon with an ego and therefore was unaffected by my chant magic - which would make the Pain ego somewhat useless.

Yredelemnul is another necro-themed deity, but... as allies for you.

Yeah, was tempted, but training Invocations too much means an extra skill for an already strung-out character. I quite like Necromancy for the allies thing, but I've gone off it recently - they seem to be more trouble than they're worth for stealthy characters.

Makhleb is another invocations deity... help the other side.

Haven't tried Makhleb yet. Isn't he/she/it the one who heals your character randomly after each kill?

Elyvilon is often overlooked as an option for skalds, but she's really, really strong for almost any character that trains invocations... shouldn't really be too burdensome for you.

Didn't think of Ely. I would've thought as the 'priest goddess' she'd be a poor choice for a stabby, stealthy skald with a mean sword arm and a bow and a bit of a reliance on Regeneration... Heh. Makes me think a little of Aragorn. With some Legolas in for good measure.

Okawaru is a bit of an oddball for skalds, since she boosts your specialty... keeping you well-stocked on ammo and other equipment.

I must admit, I seem to remember taking Oka as a god, but only got a rank or so of piety before getting banished. I didn't realise Heroism was quite so useful, will have to remember that if I use him again in future. Does it book melee skills only, or does it affect ranged attacks as well? Also, does Oka gift lighter armours that are good for stealth/casting?

As of other gods, thought about TOS, but that will stop me using stabbing, regeneration or poison, and later the pain chant (can't remember the name, gives a weapon a pain effect) so that limits things a fair bit. Nemelex I'd considered, done a game with him before; I was also openly training Evocations because of the sheer number of wands and the awesome ice rod of destruction I'd found (instant freezing cloud, at no MP cost? Yes please!).

So far, only improvement I've thought of is to go with Short Blades instead of Long, and find and use a quick blade as soon as I can. Don't Elves have a better chance of finding them or something?

[KoboldLord]

Actually, if you look, my Skald did have some apt skill in bows. Actually found that charms mixed with bows make some quite powerful ranged combos, but I've always been a fan of ranged attacks. The ability to 'choose' my enchantment via war chant was good, too.

Bows are fine for skalds. I was listing options, and picking up a launcher is on the list. You probably don't want to go Kiku and pick up a bow at the same time, but either one is probably good. An altar to Kiku is guaranteed to appear early; a bow will almost always drop off a centaur in that time but arrows may be in short supply for a while if you are unlucky. Note that skill is very important to your damage output when you're using a bow or other launcher.

There is one for pain enchants should I need it, and as a Skald I found it preferable to stick to my well-enchanted (+3, +5) egoless longsword rather than the nifty Falchion of the Mosquito I found, purely because the Falchion was a unique weapon with an ego and therefore was unaffected by my chant magic - which would make the Pain ego somewhat useless.

Just a head's up, artefact weapons in Crawl are usually terrible. For most characters who actually care, the most important attribute of a melee weapon is the amount of damage you deal when you hit something with it, and that means picking the strongest base weapon type is almost always far more important than any of the other attribute noise in a given artefact's description.

Haven't tried Makhleb yet. Isn't he/she/it the one who heals your character randomly after each kill?

Yes. She also lets you summon post-endgame monsters that can single-handedly clear entire levels of Lair or Orc, without any assistance from you.

Didn't think of Ely. I would've thought as the 'priest goddess' she'd be a poor choice for a stabby, stealthy skald with a mean sword arm and a bow and a bit of a reliance on Regeneration... Heh. Makes me think a little of Aragorn. With some Legolas in for good measure.

The teachings of Elyvilon are clear: administration of the edge of a poisoned dagger into the patient's throat as he sleeps is an effective method to reduce suffering.

I didn't realise Heroism was quite so useful, will have to remember that if I use him again in future. Does it book melee skills only, or does it affect ranged attacks as well?

Yes. Also dodging, shields, etc. No magic, though.

Also, does Oka gift lighter armours that are good for stealth/casting?

Okawaru's armor gifts are kind of a running gag in the player base. Okawaru is perfectly content to give you +0 animal hides several times consecutively, since the gifts are mostly random with only slight weighting towards your skills. Okawaru will always give things that you can physically equip, but they may or may not fit your actual build, or even be useful for any conceivable build. Eventually you'll get a few good pieces of whatever it is you're hoping for, but it can be frustrating waiting for them.

I was also openly training Evocations because of the sheer number of wands and the awesome ice rod of destruction I'd found (instant freezing cloud, at no MP cost? Yes please!).

Combat rods are remarkably strong, and finding one justifies investment in evocations all by itself. Rods are pretty rare, though, so you can't really expect to find one until you actually see it sitting on the ground.

So far, only improvement I've thought of is to go with Short Blades instead of Long, and find and use a quick blade as soon as I can. Don't Elves have a better chance of finding them or something?

Crawl generally does not modify level generation based on species, background, or deity. Quick blades are rare no matter what you're playing. For a skald, long blades are going to be more favorable than short blades anyway.

[rebthor]

Or axes or polearms.

Since if you're going bow/xbow you can't really use a shield anyhow, there's no reason not to pick up the beefy two hander weapons.

[Jabberwocky]

Or axes or polearms.

Since if you're going bow/xbow you can't really use a shield anyhow, there's no reason not to pick up the beefy two hander weapons.

Double/triple swords are quite good and for high elves take less xp to get usable. Long blades are feasible.

[Fungus]

For what it's worth, coming from a relative newbie who has beaten the game exactly once (all-runer though!), I've had fun with hybrid Okawaru-->Vehumet. Even though many of Oka's gifts are underwhelming, eventually you'll get a few good 'uns. Switching to Vehumet isn't hard or particularly dangerous in the end game (usually post-Vault). I've played a few successful Naga Wizards with this strategy. Two died in Pan and a Ziggurat due to stupid mistakes on my part (the newbie) not the character build (hybrid).

[libelnon]

Bows are fine for skalds. I was listing options, and picking up a launcher is on the list. You probably don't want to go Kiku and pick up a bow at the same time, but either one is probably good. An altar to Kiku is guaranteed to appear early; a bow will almost always drop off a centaur in that time but arrows may be in short supply for a while if you are unlucky. Note that skill is very important to your damage output when you're using a bow or other launcher.

So does it affect accuracy or just raw damage? If I'm going with this build again I do want to use bows again, or at least a launcher for ranged combat, though I'm going to have a play around with what race to use. I liked the fact that all of the skills I wanted were available at a positive aptitude with HE, but because of all the negatives they weren't so flexible. Going to have a look around the other races. On a side note, I've not seen a crossbow lying about before - where would I find one of those?

Just a head's up, artefact weapons in Crawl are usually terrible. For most characters who actually care, the most important attribute of a melee weapon is the amount of damage you deal when you hit something with it, and that means picking the strongest base weapon type is almost always far more important than any of the other attribute noise in a given artefact's description.

So, strongest base weapon type as in raw damage per hit? I would've thought speed was an important factor as well, otherwise the sabre would be superior to the quick blade. And with the war chants, I would've thought that a faster weapon would be superior, so that it can apply the effects of the chant more often.

Yes. She also lets you summon post-endgame monsters that can single-handedly clear entire levels of Lair or Orc, without any assistance from you.

Sweet. Does that need Invocations as well? And do you earn experience for their kills?

Though summoning those post-endgame monsters does come with the risk of them turning on you, right?

The teachings of Elyvilon are clear: administration of the edge of a poisoned dagger into the patient's throat as he sleeps is an effective method to reduce suffering.

Odd, I thought Elyvilon disdained all forms of killing.

(on Heroism) Yes. Also dodging, shields, etc. No magic, though.

Sweet. That sounds quite useful for a skald, even if it doesn't boost magic. To be honest, other than ensuring that the shroud stayed active in longer fights and that I had repel missiles active when spellcasters appeared, I wasn't using magic much in combat. Apart from regeneration, which I was starting to rely on a lot.

Also, does Oka gift lighter armours that are good for stealth/casting?

Okawaru's armor gifts are kind of a running gag in the player base. Okawaru is perfectly content to give you +0 animal hides several times consecutively, since the gifts are mostly random with only slight weighting towards your skills. Okawaru will always give things that you can physically equip, but they may or may not fit your actual build, or even be useful for any conceivable build. Eventually you'll get a few good pieces of whatever it is you're hoping for, but it can be frustrating waiting for them.

So, not likely to give out quick blades then. Not that that really matters when ultimately, the fact that you're getting them is useful - most of the things you find in the dungeon isn't useful to you, and at least none of Oka's stuff could be cursed, to the best of my knowledge.

Crawl generally does not modify level generation based on species, background, or deity. Quick blades are rare no matter what you're playing. For a skald, long blades are going to be more favorable than short blades anyway.

So, even with the speed bonus and the chant taken into account, a double sword would be superior to a quick blade?

That being said, I'd suggested short blades because they're better for stabbing. Since, I've thought that it might be better to just use stealth and ignore stabbing so much, so I can pick my fights and not spread my experience out too much.

Or axes or polearms.

Since if you're going bow/xbow you can't really use a shield anyhow, there's no reason not to pick up the beefy two hander weapons.

That, coupled with the fact with the fact that shields put a pretty big hole in your spellcasting ability. I would've thought swords to be superior anyway, for a HE, as they're more reliant on DEX than STR.

As much as HESk isn't great for a newbie character, I'm determined to make this work. I'm just having too much fun with this build.

[rebthor]

Ely doesn't care if you kill things, as long as you don't do it "in her name." Of course if you kill everything and pacify nothing, you're missing out on the best parts of using her and you'll not have much if any piety, but you could win like that.

The divinity of healing. Most reliable source of protection from being killed while praying, but will impose penance (i.e. not answer your requests for help) if you kill living creatures while praying. Provides healing invocations, but dislikes cannibalism, the use of necromancy, and allowing allies to die.

[rchandra]

On a side note, I've not seen a crossbow lying about before - where would I find one of those?

So, strongest base weapon type as in raw damage per hit? I would've thought speed was an important factor as well, otherwise the sabre would be superior to the quick blade. And with the war chants, I would've thought that a faster weapon would be superior, so that it can apply the effects of the chant more often.

So, even with the speed bonus and the chant taken into account, a double sword would be superior to a quick blade?

Crossbow can be randomly found on the floor, occasionally a kobold will have one. They don't become common until yaktaurs later in the dungeon, the most reliable way to get one is to start as a hunter or arcane marksman. Orc Knights can also have them.

Eventually (with sufficient weapon skill), most weapons have the same speed - 0.7t. Notable exceptions are the demon weapons, and short blades. Your flaming/freezing brands work better on large weapons (damage boost is a percentage of damage dealt), poison is better on fast weapons.

I am not a fan of short blades other than for stabbing, so I'd use the double sword over the quick blade.

[KoboldLord]

So does it affect accuracy or just raw damage? If I'm going with this build again I do want to use bows again, or at least a launcher for ranged combat, though I'm going to have a play around with what race to use. I liked the fact that all of the skills I wanted were available at a positive aptitude with HE, but because of all the negatives they weren't so flexible. Going to have a look around the other races. On a side note, I've not seen a crossbow lying about before - where would I find one of those?

Sling/bow/crossbow skill improves both accuracy and damage, but more important it improves attack speed. At high skill, you can shoot more arrows in a given span of absolute time. Although each one will appear to take up its own turn, the turns will be shorter and you will get more of them between enemy turns.

Crossbows are uncommon floor loot early on, but eventually yaktaurs start spawning. Yaktaurs are basically upgraded centaurs, but with a crossbow instead of a bow.

So, strongest base weapon type as in raw damage per hit? I would've thought speed was an important factor as well, otherwise the sabre would be superior to the quick blade. And with the war chants, I would've thought that a faster weapon would be superior, so that it can apply the effects of the chant more often.

Weapon speed is a major factor, but your weapon skill with that weapon will improve your weapon speed so slower weapons will eventually catch up and keep their extra damage in exchange for no disadvantage. Most good weapons cap out at a delay of .6 or .7 turns.

Quick blades are a special case, because they have an especially low minimum delay for their damage. With the right weapon brand, such as pain, distortion, or electrocution, they become a really good weapon competitive with heavy weapons. Unfortunately, fast attacks do not perfectly compensate for lower base damage, because monster AC applies separately to each attack and later in the game dangerous monsters will tend to have very high AC. The stabbing bonus particular to short blades compensates for their relatively low damage in a straight fight, but unless you're specifically playing a character that can set up chances to stab this compensatory bonus won't come into play very often.

Most weapon brands, including those provided by Fire Brand and Freezing Aura, provide a percentage-based damage bonus. Regardless of whether your weapon hits harder or faster, the brand deals more damage based on the total damage dealt. Poison, pain, distortion, and electrocution are notable exceptions, but except for poison can be very hard to get on exactly the right weapon.

Sweet. Does that need Invocations as well? And do you earn experience for their kills?

Though summoning those post-endgame monsters does come with the risk of them turning on you, right?

The chance of Makhleb's minions turning on you is based on your invocations skill. No matter how high you raise it, though, the chance never goes away completely, so managing the risk is part of that deity's style. You do get a choice between weaker and stronger minions, if you're low on emergency escapes.

If you don't help at all, you get 50% xp for kills made by your minions. If you are in there helping to deal damage, you get a greater percentage of xp depending on exactly how much you're actually doing.

So, not likely to give out quick blades then. Not that that really matters when ultimately, the fact that you're getting them is useful - most of the things you find in the dungeon isn't useful to you, and at least none of Oka's stuff could be cursed, to the best of my knowledge.

Okawaru is totally okay with giving you distortion weapons, auto-cursing equipment, junk that makes you explode, and the like. Sometimes it feels like she's passive-aggressively trying to kill you, but really it's all down to luck. Genuinely dangerous equipment gifts are rare, but they can happen.

So, even with the speed bonus and the chant taken into account, a double sword would be superior to a quick blade?

On a high elf? Unless you went Kiku and planned to pain brand that quick blade, I'd go with a double sword without a second thought.

That, coupled with the fact with the fact that shields put a pretty big hole in your spellcasting ability. I would've thought swords to be superior anyway, for a HE, as they're more reliant on DEX than STR.

The shield penalty to EV and spellcasting can be completely eliminated with enough shield skill. For your high elf, you can eliminate all penalties on a buckler at 5 skill, which is a trivial expenditure, and on a regular shield at 15 skill. The real shield penalty is that you don't get to trade up to a triple sword when one becomes available, although how important that is varies from character to character.

Ignore str/dex weighting on weapons. The damage bonus is miniscule. When you get a stat point of your choice from leveling up, your skald should always pick int.

[jejorda2]

Okawaru is totally okay with giving you … junk that makes you explode

What are you referring to?

[Jabberwocky]

Okawaru is totally okay with giving you … junk that makes you explode

What are you referring to?

crap artifacts with +mut

[bobross419]

Okawaru is totally okay with giving you … junk that makes you explode

What are you referring to?

crap artifacts with +mut

Why is +mut even in the game? I'd rather have nothing than something with +mut.

[Jabberwocky]

It can be interesting as a switch on jewelry, sure that ring has rF++ rC++ rElec dam +7 but it has mut so can't constantly be wearing it. Also it makes putting on unidentified artifacts more risky.

[bobross419]

It can be interesting as a switch on jewelry, sure that ring has rF++ rC++ rElec dam +7 but it has mut so can't constantly be wearing it. Also it makes putting on unidentified artifacts more risky.

Eh, +MUT just means "More floor trash" to me.

[XuaXua]

I had a +Hunger sword I would swap to for attacks because it was +8.

[bobross419]

I had a +Hunger sword I would swap to for attacks because it was +8.

+Hunger isn't bad... its easily controllable, unlike +MUT... +MUT just sucks... After handling everything with both a caster and a melee with almost no resists I wouldn't even bother hanging onto a ring that has full levels in all resists with +MUT. About the only time I'd even consider hanging on to it is if it also had evokable tele before I've found a scroll or two (which is pretty unlikely since I usually ID Tele by D:2).

The only choice that +MUT presents is whether to hang onto the item so I can do a bulk drop or if I just drop right now. Its not like its even a hit or miss like !Mut... its going to usually be a bad mut that you get. Why waste the effort when you can get through the game just fine without the hassle?

[cerebovssquire]

I had a +Hunger sword I would swap to for attacks because it was +8.

+Hunger isn't bad... its easily controllable, unlike +MUT... +MUT just sucks... After handling everything with both a caster and a melee with almost no resists I wouldn't even bother hanging onto a ring that has full levels in all resists with +MUT. About the only time I'd even consider hanging on to it is if it also had evokable tele before I've found a scroll or two (which is pretty unlikely since I usually ID Tele by D:2).

The only choice that +MUT presents is whether to hang onto the item so I can do a bulk drop or if I just drop right now. Its not like its even a hit or miss like !Mut... its going to usually be a bad mut that you get. Why waste the effort when you can get through the game just fine without the hassle?

Well this is absolutely irrational. Say you are facing a dangerous enemy that deals elemental damage (frost giant, storm dragon, orb of fire, whatever), or a dangerous enemy in general (executioner, death drake, hydra, centaur warrior, whatever is dangerous at your depth) and you want to use a ring that has elemental resists or AC/EV/slaying boni/+int/whatever respectively. Where is the harm in wearing that ring even if it has +MUT for a couple dozen turns of less? It will give you a little grey glow, the horror. In turn, it will help you win that fight or even be the main cause of you winning that fight. And still you suggest that good +MUT items aren't even good swaps but trash regardless of other properties?

[bobross419]

I had a +Hunger sword I would swap to for attacks because it was +8.

+Hunger isn't bad... its easily controllable, unlike +MUT... +MUT just sucks... After handling everything with both a caster and a melee with almost no resists I wouldn't even bother hanging onto a ring that has full levels in all resists with +MUT. About the only time I'd even consider hanging on to it is if it also had evokable tele before I've found a scroll or two (which is pretty unlikely since I usually ID Tele by D:2).

The only choice that +MUT presents is whether to hang onto the item so I can do a bulk drop or if I just drop right now. Its not like its even a hit or miss like !Mut... its going to usually be a bad mut that you get. Why waste the effort when you can get through the game just fine without the hassle?

Well this is absolutely irrational. Say you are facing a dangerous enemy that deals elemental damage (frost giant, storm dragon, orb of fire, whatever), or a dangerous enemy in general (executioner, death drake, hydra, centaur warrior, whatever is dangerous at your depth) and you want to use a ring that has elemental resists or AC/EV/slaying boni/+int/whatever respectively. Where is the harm in wearing that ring even if it has +MUT for a couple dozen turns of less? It will give you a little grey glow, the horror. In turn, it will help you win that fight or even be the main cause of you winning that fight. And still you suggest that good +MUT items aren't even good swaps but trash regardless of other properties?

Yep.

[cerebovssquire]

"+mut sucks", the best argument

[libelnon]

The One Ring in LotR was pretty powerful, with a downside. Sure, it didn't make you grow eyes out of your back or turn your hands into claws, but it was still a nice balance to an otherwise overpowerful artifact. Perhaps that's a bad example when it's a book and not a game, though.

My point is, +Mut on a supremely powerful artefact gives more strategy to how you'd use it.

I'm having another go with the HESk build, I'll see how it goes and dump the results if I manage to do something worthwhile.

[Deimos]

To be fair, +mut does generate floor trash if it's generated on something that you cant swap on and off quickly.

[libelnon]

Okay, another attempt with the HESk build ended in failure due to a supremely unlucky situation - surrounded by about 14 orcs whilest running from a jelly. I got smited by their priest while my Teleport scroll kicked in.