Draconian Questions (and using Dragon form)

[XuaXua]

The one thing I'd like from the Crawl wiki is a list of precisely which dragon types Draconians transform into using Dragon Form.

That isn't listed on the mass Dragons page and it isn't listed on the Draconians page, and I don't have the where-with-all to know all the data offhand and write it myself.

[BlackSheep]

The one thing I'd like from the Crawl wiki is a list of precisely which dragon types Draconians transform into using Dragon Form.

That isn't listed on the mass Dragons page and it isn't listed on the Draconians page, and I don't have the where-with-all to know all the data offhand and write it myself.

  Code:

monster_type dragon_form_dragon_type()
{
    switch (you.species)
    {
        case SP_WHITE_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_ICE_DRAGON;
        case SP_GREEN_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_SWAMP_DRAGON;
        case SP_YELLOW_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_GOLDEN_DRAGON;
        case SP_GREY_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_IRON_DRAGON;
        case SP_BLACK_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_STORM_DRAGON;
        case SP_PURPLE_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_QUICKSILVER_DRAGON;
        case SP_MOTTLED_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_MOTTLED_DRAGON;
        case SP_PALE_DRACONIAN:
             return MONS_STEAM_DRAGON;
        case SP_RED_DRACONIAN:
        default:
             return MONS_DRAGON;
    }
}

From transform.cc

[BlackSheep]

except it doesn't actually work in tiles

Huh, I wonder how hard that would be to change...

[XuaXua]

Because that's not how it works. They just keep their breath weapon (with increased power) and resistances. There is no such thing as players turning into monsters, and I hope there never will be.

Do Grey Draconians get the Iron Dragon breath weapon when they transform then, or no breath weapon?

[BlackSheep]

No breath weapon

[tasonir]

On a wonderfully offtopic thought, I've always wanted iron dragons to leave hides. When enchanted it should be something like a crystal plate with reduced EV penalty, and no resistances. Maybe 14 ac, -5 ev, no resists? I can dream

[TwilightPhoenix]

Because that's not how it works. They just keep their breath weapon (with increased power) and resistances.

They also keep their scales mutations, which means they'll generally have more AC in dragon form than other species. Just double checked that in wiz. A level 27 Merfolk had 16 AC in Dragon Form and a level 27 Mottled Draconian had 26 AC.

[galehar]

The one thing I'd like from the Crawl wiki is a list of precisely which dragon types Draconians transform into using Dragon Form.

That isn't listed on the mass Dragons page and it isn't listed on the Draconians page, and I don't have the where-with-all to know all the data offhand and write it myself.

Could you stop derailing thread, with off-topic questions and ideas? How hard is it to create a new one?

[BlackSheep]

I submitted a patch that uses the tiles for the various dragon types mentioned in that code snippet I referenced for draconians casting dragon form.

https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5572

[XuaXua]

The one thing I'd like from the Crawl wiki is a list of precisely which dragon types Draconians transform into using Dragon Form.

That isn't listed on the mass Dragons page and it isn't listed on the Draconians page, and I don't have the where-with-all to know all the data offhand and write it myself.

Could you stop derailing thread, with off-topic questions and ideas? How hard is it to create a new one?

It's easier when the moderators do it for me, apparently.

[XuaXua]

So... sort of on topic.

Pre-level-7 Draconian gains mutation "breathes fire".
Draconian turns out to be gray (*$%&*#$!!!!).
Gray (or Grey, whatever) Draconian casts Spider Form.
Spider can breathe fire.

Red draconian casts Spider Form.
Spider cannot breathe fire.

Completely understandable since the first one is a "mutation" and the second one is an aspect of race, but I found it semi strange.

[galehar]

Interactions between forms, racial mutations and random mutations is scary...
Also, I hope you're playing trunk so you can enjoy your brand-new iron-grey draconian

[XuaXua]

Interactions between forms, racial mutations and random mutations is scary...
Also, I hope you're playing trunk so you can enjoy your brand-new iron-grey draconian

Iron-Grey are not in crawl_tiles-0.11-a0-1191, which is the latest off the RSS feed.

Was always slightly annoyed (but understood and glad it got rationalized out due to weight) by the shallow water penalty.

I almost considered suggesting having a draconian that lost the vestigal wings.

[XuaXua]

If you have pre-color draconian Spellcasting of 4, and you change to a Purple Draconian (Spellcasting +2), does your skill get adjusted, or should you have held off feeding the skill till the color change?

[galehar]

If you have pre-color draconian Spellcasting of 4, and you change to a Purple Draconian (Spellcasting +2), does your skill get adjusted, or should you have held off feeding the skill till the color change?

You keep the same amount of skill points. When aptitudes change, skill levels are adjusted accordingly. Thus, helding off has no effect.

Aptitudes change the number of skill points needed to reach a certain level, it doesn't change the number of skill points you gain.

[BlackSheep]

Yay commits! New tiles... so shiny...

[XuaXua]

Draconian is transmuted into Spider Form.
Hit by a Spear of Dragon Slaying.
The draconian still convulses; should he really?

[galehar]

Draconian is transmuted into Spider Form.
Hit by a Spear of Dragon Slaying.
The draconian still convulses; should he really?

Yes. It's Spider Form, not Spider Being.

[Tiber]

Draconian is transmuted into Spider Form.
Hit by a Spear of Dragon Slaying.
The draconian still convulses; should he really?

Yes. It's Spider Form, not Spider Being.

That strikes me as inconsistent. By that logic, a non-draconian using dragon form shouldn't gain a vulnerability to the dragon-slaying brand, because he's not really a dragon.

[XuaXua]

Draconian is transmuted into Spider Form.
Hit by a Spear of Dragon Slaying.
The draconian still convulses; should he really?

Yes. It's Spider Form, not Spider Being.

Then why can't he use breath weapon when he's in Spider Form?
If I have the poison spit mutation or developed the yellow draconian's acid bite, I've got those.

[mageykun]

(Caution: I am now officially making things up. Specifically, transmutations lore).

Why's a spider formed dragon still hurt by dragon slaying? Because deep down, he's still a dragon. In his heart. His soul. The cores of his being. That's beyond the scope of transmutation. Instead of changing the expression of yourself, you're changing what yourself means. Instead of reorganization, you've talking redefinition, recreation. Once you get into that stuff you're kind of crossing into the realm of divine powers. Or at the very least crazy transcendental enlightenment metamental nonsense. And we don't even have a skill for enlightenment and/or philosophy (get Grimm working on it, maybe :p).

Why can't a spider formed dragon use his breath weapon? Cause he's got the wrong respiratory system. Why can he still use his acid bite? Cause he's still got a viable delivery system. Why can he still spit poison? Cause spiders can still spit.

Basically, forms incorporate whatever is compatible (and/or fundamental) from the natural form of the caster, and overwrites everything else. So one caster's spider form isn't necessarily the same as another's. Statue forms reflect different body types and shapes. And in the most extreme example, a draconian's genetic heritage will drastically affect his or her dragon forms.

Now, I did make all that up, but it makes sense, and is consistent with the in game interaction of the various forms with racial and non-racial mutations.

[One-Eyed Jack]

That's a long way of saying, "because brands are magic and work however they want to"

[mageykun]

Well, yeah. But whenever possible, I prefer some kind of justifiable in-universe lore to a simple "because that's how it was decided the game mechanics work". It's a lot more satisfying, and potentially useful to think about. A sense of how things work in-universe can be used to set up a more logical and consistent set of game mechanics. (for instance, the last time the topic of forms and mutations overlap came up it actually revealed some inconsistent bugs for fixing).

[XuaXua]

(Caution: I am now officially making things up. Specifically, transmutations lore).

Man magey, you make things up all the time; someone should call you out on it.

[XuaXua]

So... my Draconian in Spider-Form was climbing on walls over some water with low MP and the spell was about to time-out (SEWERS!).

I drank a potion of levitation.

The spider gained the "Fly" status, rather than the levitation status. I was not wearing an amulet of controlled flight; apparently, this controlled flight on draconians should be suppressed in certain forms (Ice Form, Spider Form).

[njvack]

Wow. That edge case makes me feel again like the distinction between lev and fly should just not be. Tengu in forms probably do the same.

As things are, it sounds like a bug and probably can go to Mantis.

[XuaXua]

Wow. That edge case makes me feel again like the distinction between lev and fly should just not be. Tengu in forms probably do the same.

As things are, it sounds like a bug and probably can go to Mantis.

Ever since the levitation spell was removed and any bonuses to flight were neutered (seems to only help the overloaded/burdened escape), I haven't felt a compelling reason to fly as a draconian.