When is it too late to change your main weapon?


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Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Monday, 9th April 2012, 09:01

When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Hey guys!

Long time lurking but finally signed up to the forums for fun. Anyone else feel like sometimes the RNG of this game almost is out to get you with what items it spawns? Character didn't last much longer after this unfortunately, but it was quite a funny experience for me. Just wanted some input into how someone else may have handled the situation. I'm going to skip posting the log and just highlight the main points of the game that I'm curious about. Character in question was your standard MiBe (because hitting things with a huge axe appeals to me more than the KoBe shortblade route). I found the temple on D:4 and decided to stop and do some quick IDing/stashing. Got super lucky and IDed a glowing hand axe I picked up after I made sure it wasn't cursed. For a weapon at this point a +4, +2 hand axe {flaming} felt pretty good to me. I had also only picked up one amulet on my way to the temple which I IDed as clarity. I had also pumped all my experience into axes. I carried on after I did this bit of stashing and whatnot and got to D:7. By now my axe skill is at about 12-13 and I'm looking into seeing when I can start spreading some points out til Trog gifts me a better weapon. Then I find an artefact crystal sword. Many of you who have played this longer than me will most likely realize that this is the unrandart 'Sword of Jihad' (http://crawl.develz.org/info/inline.php?q=sword_of_jihad). I spent the next amount of time debating what to do now. I essentially just found a weapon that could last me the entire game with the clarity I have to avoid the downfalls of berserkeritis, and as far as I know clarity only stops unintentional berserk. The only thing holding me back is my now 13 levels in Axes. Long story short, I figured, Trog, would give me an axe later that would hold up fine and I stashed the sword for giggles. What do you guys think? Should I have switched to long blades and proceeded to lay waste or was waiting for, Trog, viable?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 9th April 2012, 11:17

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

D:7? Start dual-skilling. By midgame my MiBes usually have at least two main weapons and are working on a missile skill. Keep using the axe but turn Axes off and Long Blades on. Pretty soon you'll have doubled your weapon options.

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Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Monday, 9th April 2012, 11:33

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

As I said it's a bit late as the characters already passed, but thanks I'll keep it in mind. I got to thinking about it and had come up with an alternative myself. I figured I could keep it stashed as well and later after I'd cleared Lair and Orc I could drop, Trog, as well. By then, he'd either have gifted me a better weapon or something that would keep me at least going, (as that sword is pretty awesome, minus berserkeritis). If I had switched gods, how bad of an idea would it have been to save up my curse armor and jewelry scrolls and switched to, Ashenzari? As long as I could bind myself I should gain piety fairly quickly. After that, Ashenzari, provides clarity later and the ability to respec your skills so I could always dump over my points. I wasn't necessarily meaning to stick with pure melee on this character and, Ashenzari, gives a pretty nice skill boost when you're bound I believe (seen some argue it's better than Vehumet). I may also be biased as I personally find, Ashenzari, to be a rather under-looked god. I also figured that, Ashenzari, would be a pretty good option instead of the usual, TSO, but I may be wrong. Can anyone fill me in on exactly why, TSO, is so good for the extended game? I know the amount of undead and demons later is pretty much everything in sight, so the holy brand is great for more damage, but are his other god benefits really that outstanding? (They seem pretty strong to me don't get me wrong. I'd just like to know from someone with a few wins under their belt why, TSO, is such a strong option.

Either way I like the idea of having two strong weapons and may start to do this myself. Usually I just get throwing for its sheer simplicity as a missile skill. Never had much trouble beyond that and gifted darts can be pretty good it seems to me. I know you can also drop, Trog, really early if you have a reliable source of levitation, but what about if not? I know he can summon some pretty mean and angry mobs around you at very inopportune times. I've heard multiple strategies including just hiding out in an alcove so the spawned mobs can't surround you. Overall, I could see it being not that big of an ordeal if you were just careful, but I'm curious as to what period people consider this option.

Thanks again.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 9th April 2012, 17:43

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Yeah, multiple strong weapons is one of the advantages of the minotaur race. Even late in the game they can pick up a new weapon type fairly easily if they need to.

Trog wrath is not survivable after Lair/Orc, unless you have boots of lev and sustenance/a big stack of food. Even in an alcove, a character of that low a level will not be able to stand up to a berserking stone giant, of which you will see many from Trog, sometimes five all at once. Characters that hide in alcoves are usually pretty high level and can take down stone giants one or two at a time.

Can't speak to TSO, I use him for Crypt/Tomb but I prefer Zin's rMut for the hellish realms.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 9th April 2012, 18:17

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

TSO grants rN+++, which will make you immune to all negative energy attacks except Torment, which will only do 35% instead of 50% of your health. He also gives you a skill that lets you use a shield while wielding a two-hander, Cleansing Flame which does extra damage to demons and undead, a divine Halo that reveals invisible and boosts your accuracy (and makes following his strict conducts much easier), and the ability to summon angels who tend to kick demon' and undeads' asses. And yes, he also grants the perma-holy brand, which when given to a demonic weapon turns it into an awesome blessed weapon (Demon Trident > Blessed Trishula, Demon Sword > Eudemon Blade, Demon Whip > Holy Scourge) and is also probably the only way to get the Holy Wrath brand on a bow, crossbow, or sling (but don't quote me on that).
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 9th April 2012, 19:30

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Halo, heal-on-kills, and the best summons in the game are all extremely good.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 08:28

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.
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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 08:47

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10


that's the opposite of what i do
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 11:00

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.


Err, isn't it generally a better idea as a melee character to get your main weapon to min delay first? And what else will you train with all that experience?

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 12:30

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Err, isn't it generally a better idea as a melee character to get your main weapon to min delay first? And what else will you train with all that experience?


Definitely. As a "primary spellcaster", meaning that you plan to kill most people with spells, it isn't a bad thing to wait till your starting book and some Dodging/Armour is up and running before branching out, but as Fi/Gl/AK/CK/Be/Mo/whatever it's a big mistake not to go weapon first. If you're a Mu of Sif you might also choose just not to get a weapon skill.
Note that Tm =/= Mo because Spider Form > Unarmed Combat to 10 > Blade Hands > Dodging is in my opinion the optimal approach to this character, not UC first.

Chronic "but I don't want to waste exp at all" neurosis has no death in a permadeath game where surviving the first 10 XLs is the biggest challenge. It's almost as bad as "but I'm going to do extended later, shouldn't I get the Necronomicon instead of a pain brand".
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 13:27

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.

That's the worst piece of "advice" I've seen in quite a while, and I've seen some really bad stuff recently. It seems that the long-term goal of the forums is to replace the wiki as the go-to place for gross misinformation - and the wiki is already unbelievably bad.
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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 14:02

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.

BADFORUM!

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 14:07

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

rebthor wrote:
Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.

BADFORUM!


IT WAS THE FIRST THING I DID AFTER READING THE POST!

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 14:42

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

ebarrett wrote:
Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.

That's the worst piece of "advice" I've seen in quite a while, and I've seen some really bad stuff recently. It seems that the long-term goal of the forums is to replace the wiki as the go-to place for gross misinformation - and the wiki is already unbelievably bad.


I think there was deliberate misinformation in there, as opposed to the wiki, which consists of outdated information.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 14:53

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

XuaXua wrote:
ebarrett wrote:
Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.

That's the worst piece of "advice" I've seen in quite a while, and I've seen some really bad stuff recently. It seems that the long-term goal of the forums is to replace the wiki as the go-to place for gross misinformation - and the wiki is already unbelievably bad.


I think there was deliberate misinformation in there, as opposed to the wiki, which consists of outdated information.


Outdated information is the harmless part of the wiki. The hilarious part are the strategy guides.

  Code:
"A Spriggan with a rod of destruction is nigh unstoppable, at least by monsters. "
"Cross-training is[i] always[/i] worthwhile if you discover a far better weapon of a type for which you already have the skill to allow cross-training the new weapon."
"On mummy floors, wear an amulet of stasis "
"re: zigs: You will need the following: the ability to cast Fire Storm and/or Ice Storm and/or Tornado at Great, ideally Excellent."
"Armour level is generally dictated by what level spells you wish to cast by the end game.

8-9 level spells: Robe only

7 level spells: Up to dragon armour

6 level spells: Up to storm dragon armur

4-5 level spells: Up to plate mail

1-3 level spells: Anything

This is a rough guide, however, and there are exceptions. "

"exceptions", really? "robe only", really?


these are probably very very harmless examples too
Last edited by cerebovssquire on Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 18:03, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 17:00

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.

Image
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 17:48

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

cerebovssquire wrote:these are probably very very harmless examples too


So... you're saying you spent time collecting those snippets instead of just deleting them from the wiki?
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 17:58

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

XuaXua wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:these are probably very very harmless examples too


So... you're saying you spent time collecting those snippets instead of just deleting them from the wiki?

So... you're saying he should babysit two hubs of nonsense instead of just one?
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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 18:17

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

XuaXua wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:these are probably very very harmless examples too


So... you're saying you spent time collecting those snippets instead of just deleting them from the wiki?


yup, it was amusing
in general people will benefit a lot more from other people's ignorance than from correct information, it's much funnier
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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 20:31

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

the "nigh unstoppable spriggan with a rod of destruction" bit puzzled me for over a year. it's literally burned somewhere in my brain.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 21:32

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

absolutego wrote:the "nigh unstoppable spriggan with a rod of destruction" bit puzzled me for over a year. it's literally burned somewhere in my brain.


Actually, this sort of thing worked out for me once.

I had a Spriggan with the rod + something and it had Freezing Cloud. I poured all my recharge scrolls into it and into evocations and abused the heck out of it.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 06:35

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

absolutego wrote:it's literally burned somewhere in my brain.

Ouch
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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 07:02

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

sometimes it comes up, out of the blue, verbatim.
xuaxua: *anyone* can abuse a rod of ice or poison.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 07:22

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

xuaxua: *anyone* can abuse a rod of ice or poison.


+1

Also, any SpCj of Vehumet can have the same abuse, only 10 times in a row instead of 2-3 and also potetially in a hungerless version. The forum's statement is still absolutely ridiculous because rods are simply not something a spriggan should aspire to use as a main attack tool.
Rods are something for when you really don't have spells (or for DMsl, Abjuration, inacc, whatever) but not to replace your spells if you could be casting them, in my opinion.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 09:25

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

This should never be a problem because you worship Ashenzari 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 13:03

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Inacc is the one exception, in my opinion. Even if you -can- cast spells, if you have high evo, inacc will be outdamaging most of them against most enemies for only 3 'mana' per shot. It can reliably take down liches in 2-3 hits (4-6 adjusting for misses); guys with lower ev fall in less time.
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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 19:00

Re: When is it too late to change your main weapon?

Pteriforever wrote:You shouldn't put anything into weapon skills before XL10, and you should be sure to pick one by XL15. If you find something nice between those points, go for it. If you're XL15, you can't wait any longer and will need to settle for something FAST.

Aren't you the person who plays TeSu? Melee fighters should get their weapon speed up as soon as possible.
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