How the Hell are you mean to use a necromancer of Kiku?

[dmurray]

At this point I'm frustrated. You get (nearly at least) all the necromancy spells. Yet I have zero understanding of what works.
All I end up doing is making a vampire (I tend to get to at least D:7 on average if I can get past D:1 as a Vamp/Necro) and using animate dead plus pain to kill things.
But here are the problems:
1. Is it basically a summoner's type build? It seems that way unless I'm misunderstanding it (which is very possible).

2.With the exception of haunt, the Necronomicon isn't really worth it for a vampire or mummy (or maybe I'm wrong).
So that leaves me with getting the pain brand on a weapon.
But that sort of throws the idea of "let the undead slaves do the killing up close) out the window... I don't mind playing melee (I do like it) but it seems with all the mixing between raising magic skills and fighting skills, I may as well got with Yred (which I would rather not do, mostly because Kiku's corpse delivery is powerful in a lot of branches, like Zot).

3. Does a necromancer of Kiku ever get "stronger" in terms of attacking ability? I know we have things like haunt/simulacrum/deathchannel/etc but they're all geared towards short-term/long-term summonings basically. So with the exception of finding other books or going full on melee with the pain brand, I can't see how I'm meant to get "stronger" with Kiku, beyond "summon, let them kill".

So can anyone (ideally someone who has experience with Kiku) advise me on what I should do after say... level 10 of the dungeon? I don't mean in terms of what branches or anything but rather in terms of strategy. Cheers.

[cerebovssquire]

Usually you use Pain/Vampiric Draining/Regeneration/Agony/Dispel Undead to get you through till you get a pain weapon. Then you don't stop using these spells, but the pain weapon takes over for most damage you deal.

2.With the exception of haunt, the Necronomicon isn't really worth it for a vampire or mummy (or maybe I'm wrong).

I'm absolutely serious when I say that picking the Necronomicon is only a good decision in exceptional cases because the pain brand is simply so strong.

mixing between raising magic skills and fighting skills

What is your problem here? Your magic skills (Necromancy) are the main base for your melee skills so training Necromancy also improves your melee strength. Basically every primary spellcaster will be wanting some weapon at minimal delay, which only means 8-14 skill on most one-handers, most Vp will want a good amount of Dodging skill, and literally every normal character (not speedrunning/challenge condition) will eventually want some Fighting. There is no problem involved here because you are not branching out more than you normally would.

3. Does a necromancer of Kiku ever get "stronger" in terms of attacking ability? I know we have things like haunt/simulacrum/deathchannel/etc but they're all geared towards short-term/long-term summonings basically. So with the exception of finding other books or going full on melee with the pain brand, I can't see how I'm meant to get "stronger" with Kiku, beyond "summon, let them kill".

Raising your Fighting skill, weapon skill, and Necromancy skill will all increase pain weapon damage, especially the second till min delay and the third. And of course you will want charms like Haste.


Usually you will not want to use slaves as your main attack force and instead primarily use the spells I named above. With Kiku you probably want around 15 Necromany as a VpNe, or more if you happen to find Haunt. Otherwise, core skills will be Fighting, Dodging, weapon skill (find a good short blade or demon weapon, or take a scimitar), Spellcasting and Charms (once you find Haste).

Also: why are you starting as a Ne if you want to go Kiku? You already have the Book of Necromancy. Getting the Book of Necromancy at * is one of the primary reasons why Kiku is so strong - in other words, playing Ne of Kiku is sort of redundant in a certain sense. Wz/IE/En are all much better choices for this.

[XuaXua]

Doesn't strength also factor into damage?

[eharper256]

Actually, I find a Necromancer is not about summoning until the mid-game. Twisted Abomination, Haunt and Death Channel are actually very potent; but before then, Animate Dead and Raise Skeleton are generally not worth it; and you should play the Necromancer as a Semi- Hybrid- Spam Pain on incoming threats, prioritizing stuff that can hurt you most in melee, and then activating Regen and leaping into the fray.

After that, it depends really on what the dungeon gives you as to your development. My last Necro found an epic mace (normally a meh weapon, but this one was +5/+11 with DAM+4, rPois, rF++, STR +3, and Pain) along with Olgreb's Toxic Radiance (which doesn't affect undead).

However, Kiku Necro plays differently from Yred. Yred's idea is provide backup panic buttons and allies for melee-centric characters- and they never have to have any Necromancy skill, just a bit of Invocations. A summoner creates an impregnible wall of stuff and provides background support. Whereas I find Kiku to be more 'Warlord' type play, having a small squad of elite minions (large abominations) and striding into battle with them.

As for query (3), they're a jack of many trades. You start with low-ish STR, as a caster, so you'll never be a Beserker or Fighter in Melee combat, but you're guaranteed (from Kiku) to have at least Pain and Agony and Excruciating Wounds (USE THIS!! Until you find a permanent Pain Brand!!) plus Twisted Ressurection.

As noted, finding a good base weapon type and getting it Pain Branded is generally superior play to choosing to get a copy of Al-Azif (which you may just find lying around anyway). If you're undead, this is especially so. Haunt is amazing but not worth the book by itself. For non-undead that finds a good pain artifact, though, its still worth considering for Necromutation and Borj and DD. The latter two are ultimate panic buttons.

Of course, my last Necro died on Zot:2 to Electric Golems (stupid mistake of leaving the rElec boots in the stash and forgetting about them!) so I can't say this is definately winning advice!!

Also: why are you starting as a Ne if you want to go Kiku? You already have the Book of Necromancy. Getting the Book of Necromancy at * is one of the primary reasons why Kiku is so strong - in other words, playing Ne of Kiku is sort of redundant in a certain sense. Wz/IE/En are all much better choices for this.

Thematic choice. It doesn't sound right to have an "Enchanter of Kikubaaqudgha" and not a "Necromancer of Kikubaaqudgha" on your saved games screen, IMHO.

[cerebovssquire]

STR barely factors into damage for many weapons and never actually has an effect so considerable that you would not want to go for melee because of it. It is mainly for carry capacity, heavy armour and to a certain extent for forms, but never to actually improve your weapon damage. Also, your pain weapon's damage doesn't even come from the physical component (mainly), so...

Also, Necromutation is mainly for the rTorm in certain areas, and Kikubaaqudgha provides rTorm (and protection from Haunt sickness and some death curses, too). It's a pretty good spell with Sif but rather redundant with Kiku, to the point that I would consider it a waste to worship both the god and cast the spell.

Animate Dead is a very good spell. It creates a decent number of pretty strong minions by getting some corpses and raising them - all in 2 turns or 1.5 when hasted! No reason to dislike this spell.

Thematic choice. It doesn't sound right to have an "Enchanter of Kikubaaqudgha" and not a "Necromancer of Kikubaaqudgha" on your saved games screen, IMHO.

Each to his own, of course... but Crawl isn't really much of a role-playing game.

[XuaXua]

STR barely factors into damage for many weapons and never actually has an effect so considerable that you would not want to go for melee because of it. It is mainly for carry capacity, heavy armour and to a certain extent for forms, but never to actually improve your weapon damage.

That makes so little sense to me.

[ebarrett]

Thematic choice. It doesn't sound right to have an "Enchanter of Kikubaaqudgha" and not a "Necromancer of Kikubaaqudgha" on your saved games screen, IMHO.

I'll never understand people being proud of deliberately making bad decisions.

[XuaXua]

Thematic choice. It doesn't sound right to have an "Enchanter of Kikubaaqudgha" and not a "Necromancer of Kikubaaqudgha" on your saved games screen, IMHO.

I'll never understand people being proud of deliberately making bad decisions.

I can understand it for the challenge, but not for flavor decisions on a 100% tactical game.

[rchandra]

Flavour in crawl exists if you want it to.

People can also deliberately make bad decisions because they don't enjoy the gameplay the better decisions lead to. Examples I've seen are branch-hopping, Nemelex, summoning, etc.

[eharper256]

Thematic choice. It doesn't sound right to have an "Enchanter of Kikubaaqudgha" and not a "Necromancer of Kikubaaqudgha" on your saved games screen, IMHO.

I'll never understand people being proud of deliberately making bad decisions.

I'll never understand people being afraid of deliberately making bad decisions.

Optimal play is rarely fun play in my opinion. If I steamroll everything, I get bored very quickly. It's better to fail and make bad decisions and have fun.

Crawl, to me, is all about 'oh shit!' situations, and coming up with solutions for them. If I avoid those situations, I avoid a keystone of my game. Moreover, if you win AFTER making terrible choices in the name of roleplaying, there is a great sense of accomplishment.

But, to each his own, I guess.

Flavour in crawl exists if you want it to.

People can also deliberately make bad decisions because they don't enjoy the gameplay the better decisions lead to. Examples I've seen are branch-hopping, Nemelex, summoning, etc.

Precisely. An open game such as Crawl in fact invites an imaginative mind to create flavour.

[ebarrett]

Thematic choice. It doesn't sound right to have an "Enchanter of Kikubaaqudgha" and not a "Necromancer of Kikubaaqudgha" on your saved games screen, IMHO.

I'll never understand people being proud of deliberately making bad decisions.

I'll never understand people being afraid of deliberately making bad decisions.

Optimal play is rarely fun play in my opinion. If I steamroll everything, I get bored very quickly. It's better to fail and make bad decisions and have fun.

Crawl, to me, is all about 'oh shit!' situations, and coming up with solutions for them. If I avoid those situations, I avoid a keystone of my game. Moreover, if you win AFTER making terrible choices in the name of roleplaying, there is a great sense of accomplishment.

But, to each his own, I guess.

Oh well, since you apparently win 100% of the time if you don't cripple your character on purpose, I guess it's a valid point.

[eharper256]

<rolleyes> That's not what I said at all. I'm aware optimised characters die just like any other. 'Steamrolling' was meant to be interpreted as an 'in general across all games I find this as boring as grinding in JRPGs'.

[Gianozzolo]

Since there is really no point in opening a new thread, what do you think I should be doing with this char right now?

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.10.0 character file.

Dois the Necromancer (Demonspawn Wizard)           Turns: 25500, Time: 02:00:48

HP  96/96        AC 10     Str  8      XL: 13   Next: 47%
MP  31/31        EV 13     Int 26      God: Kikubaaqudgha [*****.]
Gold 955         SH  0     Dex 13      Spells: 10 memorised,  0 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : .    (no weapon)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  k - +0 elf robe
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .    (no shield)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    r - +0 helmet
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : .    M - +2 cloak
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    H - +0 pair of gloves of the Six Wishes {Int+3
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    y - +0 pair of boots
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: +    (no amulet)
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    m - ring of protection from magic
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    t - ring of teleport control

@: quite resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: talons 2, conserve scrolls, demonic guardian 3, fire resistance 1, ignite
blood, AC +2, EV -1
a: Receive Corpses, Torment, Renounce Religion


You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Kikubaaqudgha.
Kikubaaqudgha is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 20 of its levels.
You have visited 3 portal chambers: sewer, ice cave, spiders nest.

You have collected 1114 gold pieces.
You have spent 179 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 T - the sword of the Doom Knight {pain, -CAST MR}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   In the hands of one skilled in necromantic magic, it inflicts extra damage
   on living creatures.
   
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
   It prevents spellcasting.
Armour
 k - a +0 elven robe (worn)
 r - a +0 helmet (worn)
 y - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
 H - the +0 pair of gloves of the Six Wishes (worn) {Int+3 Acc+6}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your accuracy (+6).
 M - a +2 cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 d - a wand of flame {zapped: 1}
 n - a wand of draining {zapped: 1}
 A - a wand of fireball (3)
 P - a wand of frost {zapped: 4}
Comestibles
 w - a meat ration
 B - a honeycomb
Scrolls
 e - 4 scrolls of detect curse
 g - a scroll of enchant armour
 l - 2 scrolls of fear
 q - a scroll of amnesia
 u - 2 scrolls of blinking
 v - 6 scrolls of teleportation
 C - 4 scrolls of identify
 F - a scroll of enchant weapon III
 K - a scroll of immolation
 L - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 S - a scroll of enchant weapon II
Jewellery
 m - a ring of protection from magic (right hand)
 t - a ring of teleport control (left hand)
 x - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 G - an uncursed ring of teleportation
Potions
 b - 2 potions of brilliance
 h - 3 potions of curing
 i - a potion of levitation
 j - a potion of berserk rage
 s - 2 potions of heal wounds
 E - 2 potions of agility
 J - a potion of magic
Books
 a - a book of Unlife   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Recall                            Summoning/Translocation      3
   *Animate Dead                      Necromancy                   4
   Control Undead                     Necromancy                   4
   *Twisted Resurrection              Necromancy                   5
   Simulacrum                         Ice/Necromancy               6
   Death Channel                      Necromancy                   7
 c - a book of Death {god gift}   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Corpse Rot                         Necromancy                   2
   Sublimation of Blood               Necromancy                   2
   *Agony                             Necromancy                   5
   *Dispel Undead                     Necromancy                   5
   Excruciating Wounds                Charms/Necromancy            5
   Bolt of Draining                   Conjuration/Necromancy       6
 o - a book of Necromancy {god gift}   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Pain                               Necromancy                   1
   Animate Skeleton                   Necromancy                   1
   Lethal Infusion                    Charms/Necromancy            2
   *Vampiric Draining                 Necromancy                   3
   Regeneration                       Charms/Necromancy            3
   *Animate Dead                      Necromancy                   4
   Control Undead                     Necromancy                   4
 O - a book of Alchemy   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Fulsome Distillation               Transmutation/Necromancy     1
   Lethal Infusion                    Charms/Necromancy            2
   Sublimation of Blood               Necromancy                   2
   Evaporate                          Fire/Transmutation           2
   Condensation Shield                Ice/Transmutation            4
 Q - a book of Callings   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Summon Small Mammals               Summoning                    1
   Call Imp                           Summoning                    2
   Call Canine Familiar               Summoning                    3
   Summon Scorpions                   Summoning/Poison             4
   Summon Ice Beast                   Ice/Summoning                4


   Skills:
 + Level 12,2 Fighting
 - Level 5,0 Dodging
 - Level 6,0 Stealth
 - Level 11,0 Spellcasting
 - Level 5,0 Conjurations
 - Level 1,0 Summonings
 - Level 15,0 Necromancy
 - Level 7,0 Translocations
 - Level 3,0 Fire Magic
 - Level 5,0 Poison Magic


You cannot memorise any spells.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        1%          1    None
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
c - Mephitic Cloud        Pois/Air/Conj  #####....    3%          3    None
d - Conjure Flame         Fire/Conj      ######...    2%          3    None
e - Vampiric Draining     Necr           #######...   1%          3    None
f - Animate Dead          Necr           N/A          1%          4    None
g - Twisted Resurrection  Necr           #######...   1%          5    Choko
h - Recall                Tloc/Summ      N/A          2%          3    None
i - Agony                 Necr           #######..    1%          5    Choko
j - Dispel Undead         Necr           #######..    1%          5    Choko


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/27)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (0/4) D:6
   Lair (8/8) D:10         Shoals (0/5) Lair:3        Slime (0/6) Lair:8
  Snake (0/5) Lair:5     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
The Shining One
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
Jiyva

Shops:
D:5: [

Portals:
Trove: D:10 (give 2 potions of cure mutation)


                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have razor-sharp toenails.
You are mostly covered in molten scales (AC +2, EV -1).
You are very good at protecting items from fire.
A powerful demonic guardian rushes to your aid.
Your flesh is heat resistant.
Your demonic aura causes spilled blood to erupt in flames.


Message History

You drop a wand of confusion {zapped: 2}.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Done exploring.
Okay, then.
This spell is not that tricky to learn.
Memorise Dispel Undead, consuming 5 spell levels and leaving 0?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
You continue memorising.
You finish memorising.
Okay, then.
You swap places.
You see here 9 potions of curing.
You drop a potion of cure mutation.
You drop a potion of restore abilities.
You see here the cursed -4 chain mail "Detsoad" {rC+}.
You see here an uncursed quarterstaff of chaos.
You drop a +1,+3 whip.
You drop a +2,+3 spear of venom.

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....#......###...###......f#.
...........##..............#.
...........##.............##.
....#####..##..../........#..
....#  ##.###.............##.
....#  #P.....@x!.........#P.
#.###  ##.....%<###.########.
###     #.....?## ###     #..
      ###.....:#          #..
     ##>#......#          ##.
######..#......# ###       #.
..........##.#.###.#########.
................(............
.........##.........#######..
.........##.........##    #..


You can see a friendly small abomination.

Vanquished Creatures
  A dire elephant (Lair:8)
  Harold (D:10)
  2 death yaks
  A catoblepas (Lair:5)
  A large abomination (Lair:8)
  A feature mimic (Lair:4)
  A black mamba (Lair:7)
  A trapdoor spider (Port)
  2 wolf spiders
  17 elephants
  8 spiny frogs
  A mermaid (Lair:3)
  5 komodo dragons
  Sonja (D:10)
  6 yaks
  A hungry ghost (D:9)
  A steam dragon (D:8)
  A wyvern (Lair:5)
  4 hippogriffs
  11 war dogs
  An item mimic (Lair:2)
  2 necrophages (D:8)
  3 orc warriors
  A yak zombie (Lair:2)
  2 small abominations
  A yellow wasp (D:9)
  8 ice beasts (Port)
  3 ogres
  6 centaurs
  2 phantoms
  A boring beetle (Lair:5)
  2 water moccasins
  Duvessa (D:6)
  6 crocodiles
  3 big kobolds
  4 giant slugs
  3 nagas (Lair:5)
  An agate snail (Lair:4)
  8 giant frogs
  17 killer bees (D:10)
  Dowan (D:6)
  A big kobold skeleton (D:8)
  5 crimson imps
  Crazy Yiuf (D:6)
  4 hounds
  2 orc wizards
  7 worker ants
  2 big fish
  An orc priest (D:4)
  2 hound skeletons
  8 porcupines
  5 iguanas
  3 scorpions
  3 sheep (Lair:4)
  A goliath beetle zombie (D:6)
  A jelly (D:7)
  Terence (D:3)
  11 gnolls
  29 green rats
  19 adders
  An iguana zombie (Lair:2)
  14 giant centipedes
  10 white imps (Lair:3)
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  5 giant mites
  6 worms
  A giant eyeball (D:5)
  11 giant geckos
  2 oozes
  27 orcs
  9 giant cockroaches
  2 grey rats (Port)
  24 hobgoblins
  36 jackals
  30 kobolds
  13 quokkas
  A ball python (D:5)
  21 bats
  7 giant newts
  18 goblins
  A kobold zombie (D:6)
  29 rats
  2 fungi
  2 macabre masses
  8 plants
  13 toadstools
543 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  Maud (Lair:6)
  Jozef (Lair:3)
  5 dire elephants (Lair:8)
  An anaconda (Lair:8)
  7 death yaks
  2 emperor scorpions (Port)
  3 ice statues (Port)
  An oklob plant (D:6)
  A black mamba (Lair:2)
  14 elephants
  A queen bee (D:10)
  A spriggan (D:7)
  A basilisk (Lair:4)
  The ghost of Dois the Cudgeler, an average OgBe of Trog (D:5)
  A fire drake (Lair:8)
  14 yaks
  A hippogriff (Lair:8)
  Edmund (D:6)
  Menkaure (D:6)
  A war dog (Lair:2)
  An ogre (D:5)
  4 ice beasts
  10 big kobolds (D:6)
  A crocodile (Lair:2)
  A water moccasin (Lair:2)
  8 killer bees (D:10)
  The ghost of Gisah the Insei, a weakling DsMo (D:3)
  A crimson imp (D:5)
  2 hounds
  3 orc priests
  An orc wizard (D:8)
  10 scorpions (Port)
  An iguana (D:8)
  3 porcupines
  6 sheep (Lair:2)
  3 adders
  5 giant centipedes (Port)
  A green rat (D:10)
  2 orcs (D:5)
  2 goblins
  A kobold (D:6)
  An orc skeleton (D:10)
  3 fungi
  A plant (Lair:8)
131 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  3 large abominations (Lair:8)
  A smoke demon (Lair:2)
  A small abomination (Lair:8)
  A komodo dragon zombie (Lair:2)
  3 yak zombies (Lair:2)
  A giant frog (D:8)
  A water moccasin zombie (Lair:2)
  2 killer bees (D:10)
  A gnoll (D:5)
  2 giant centipedes (Port)
  An orc (D:6)
  A giant newt (D:7)
  A goblin (D:2)
  A rat (D:3)
  15 crawling corpses
  11 fungi
  4 macabre masses
  6 plants
  71 toadstools
127 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 801 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Dois, the Demonspawn Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 11/11 MP: 5/5
   732 | D:1      | Gained mutation: You have sharp toenails.
   732 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 12/17 MP: 2/7
  1632 | D:2      | Gained mutation: A weak demonic guardian rushes to your aid.
  1632 | D:2      | Gained mutation: A demonic guardian rushes to your aid.
  1632 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 20/22 MP: 5/9
  1636 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
  1640 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  1644 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  2644 | D:3      | Noticed Terence
  2656 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Conjurations
  2670 | D:3      | Killed Terence
  2670 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  2670 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in molten scales (AC +1).
  2670 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 17/28 MP: 3/12
  3054 | D:3      | Noticed Gisah's ghost (weakling DsMo)
  3055 | D:3      | Killed Gisah's ghost
  3429 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 20/33 MP: 12/14
  4030 | D:4      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  4708 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4752 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 34/39 MP: 8/16
  4852 | D:5      | Noticed Dois' ghost (average OgBe)
  4864 | D:5      | Killed Dois' ghost
  4911 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Poison Magic
  5043 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  5144 | D:5      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  5194 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
  5225 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You are very good at protecting items from fire.
  5225 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 42/44 MP: 3/18
  5326 | D:5      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  5476 | D:5      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5782 | D:5      | Found Coahul's Antique Armour Shoppe.
  5795 | D:5      | Bought a pair of pitted gloves for 179 gold pieces
  5798 | D:5      | Identified the cursed +0 pair of gloves of the Six Wishes (You bought it in a shop on level 5 of the Dungeon)
  5810 | D:5      | Found a glowing drain.
  5822 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  5836 | sewer    | Entered the sewers
  5961 | sewer    | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  6458 | D:6      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  6476 | D:6      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  6547 | D:6      | Noticed Edmund
  6557 | D:6      | Killed Edmund
  6557 | D:6      | Gained mutation: Your flesh is heat resistant.
  6557 | D:6      | Gained mutation: You have razor-sharp toenails.
  6557 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 44/50 MP: 17/20
  6827 | D:6      | Paralysed by a potion of paralysis for 5 turns
  6916 | D:6      | Noticed an oklob plant
  6926 | D:6      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  6931 | D:6      | Killed an oklob plant
  6996 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  7032 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  7040 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha
  7161 | D:6      | Noticed Dowan
  7163 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  7167 | D:6      | Noticed Duvessa
  7181 | D:6      | Killed Duvessa
  7181 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
  7195 | D:6      | Killed Dowan
  7601 | D:6      | Noticed Menkaure
  7606 | D:6      | Killed Menkaure
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7952 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7954 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7955 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7958 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7961 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7961 | D:6      | Reached skill level 6 in Translocations
  7964 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7968 | D:6      | Noticed a big kobold
  7977 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7979 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7981 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7982 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7983 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7984 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  7997 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  8005 | D:6      | Killed a big kobold
  8005 | D:6      | Gained mutation: Your demonic aura causes spilled blood to erupt in flames.
  8005 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 47/55 MP: 17/21
  8151 | D:7      | Reached skill level 7 in Translocations
  8213 | D:7      | Acquired Kikubaaqudgha's first power
  8213 | D:7      | Received a gift from Kikubaaqudgha
  8223 | D:7      | Learned a level 3 spell: Vampiric Draining
  8282 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
  8737 | D:7      | Learned a level 4 spell: Animate Dead
  9394 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Necromancy
  9451 | D:8      | Acquired Kikubaaqudgha's second power
 11265 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 11274 | D:10     | Noticed Harold
 11282 | D:10     | Killed Harold
 11282 | D:10     | Reached skill level 8 in Necromancy
 11282 | D:10     | Gained mutation: You are mostly covered in molten scales (AC +2, EV -1).
 11282 | D:10     | Reached XP level 10. HP: 46/61 MP: 16/23
 11344 | D:10     | Noticed Sonja
 11349 | D:10     | Killed Sonja
 11349 | D:10     | Reached skill level 9 in Necromancy
 11362 | D:10     | Learned a level 5 spell: Twisted Resurrection
 11677 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 11682 | D:10     | Received a gift from Kikubaaqudgha
 11688 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Necromancy
 11939 | D:10     | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 12386 | D:10     | Noticed a queen bee
 12391 | D:10     | Killed a queen bee
 12391 | D:10     | Reached skill level 11 in Necromancy
 12560 | D:10     | Reached skill level 12 in Necromancy
 12769 | D:10     | Got a slimy chain mail
 12824 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 13856 | Lair:1   | Acquired Kikubaaqudgha's third power
 15093 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: A powerful demonic guardian rushes to your aid.
 15093 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 66/66 MP: 22/27
 15336 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Recall
 16131 | Lair:2   | Got a warped quarterstaff
 16133 | Lair:2   | Identified the quarterstaff "Dearam" {antimagic, -TELE Int+3} (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 16457 | Lair:3   | Noticed Jozef
 16465 | Lair:3   | Killed Jozef
 16484 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 16565 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 17127 | Lair:3   | Found a frozen archway.
 17138 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 18250 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 18261 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
 18291 | Lair:4   | the staircase to the Shoals was a mimic.
 18381 | Lair:4   | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
 18729 | Lair:5   | Noticed a wolf spider
 18758 | Lair:5   | Killed a wolf spider
 19158 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 19189 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 77/84 MP: 19/28
 19318 | Lair:4   | Learned a level 5 spell: Agony
 19795 | Lair:1   | Identified the cursed -4 chain mail "Detsoad" (You took it off a hobgoblin on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 20036 | Lair:4   | Acquired Kikubaaqudgha's fourth power
 20121 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 20684 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 20781 | Lair:6   | Noticed Maud
 20828 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
 20970 | Lair:6   | You fall through a shaft!
 20970 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 21487 | Lair:7   | Found a crumbling entrance.
 21523 | Spider   | Entered a spider's nest
 21590 | Spider   | Noticed Ager's ghost (powerful MiFi)
 21718 | Lair:7   | Noticed a wolf spider
 21739 | Lair:7   | Killed a wolf spider
 21772 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 13 in Necromancy
 22517 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 14 in Necromancy
 22769 | Lair:6   | Killed Maud
 22769 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 15 in Necromancy
 23949 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 73/90 MP: 26/31
 24051 | Lair:8   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 24052 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 24899 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 24936 | Lair:8   | Got an adamantine great sword
 24938 | Lair:8   | Identified the sword of the Doom Knight {pain, -CAST MR} (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)
 25489 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Dispel Undead



So far I have been doing alright thanks to the very nice spear and Demonic Guard 3 (how awesome is that?), but I have not yet decided which weapon to start training, because the spear is great for the early game but soon will become pretty useless. I also just found the Doom knight sword, and I managed to easily kill the dire elephants hordes of L:8 thanks to agony and that (well, and the help of a friendly reaper ^^). Does it make sense to start pumping Long blades waiting for a demon blade to give the pain brand to and in the meanwhile using the Doom sword when I need to go melee?

[JeffQyzt]

Pain brand is much better on a fast weapon, especially if you don't have high weapons skills. The -CAST attribute on that sword is likely to get you killed; it's not called the sword of the DOOM knight for nothing. You didn't include your great spear in the dump; if it's also a pain weapon, it's likely better for you overall than the sword. As far as getting a demon blade - you may or may not ever get one in a 3 rune game, and if you're going for more than that the pain brand will be mostly useless once you get into Hell and Pan.

Turn off fighting for now; it's already quite high for a spellcaster at this stage of the game. You should determine what your primary source of non-necro damage is going to be - either conjurations spells or melee - and build that. Building both to high levels isn't really optimal for a 3-rune game. It seems like you've put a little into conjurations already, so perhaps that's the way to go (but your investments aren't huge, so not a deal-breaker otherwise.) If you're going for extended, know that many of your opponents will be immune to fire, poison, and necromantic damage, so something that isn't one of those would be good. Of course, for an extended game you'll have more XP than you know what to do with eventually, but you have to get there first

[Gianozzolo]

Whoops, you're right, the spear was a +2 +3 spear of venom which, used with conjure flame, gave me quite an easy time so far.
As for fighting, I actually forgot it on for quite a while, so that's why it's so high . For the Doom sword, I usually soften enemies up with agony or smthg then beat them to death with it, and if things go bad I unwiled and semicBlink away, so for now I feel quite safe using it; I do although know that I need to find a better one, just that I wasn't sure what to do: should I wait until I find a good base weapon (possibly a fast one), then start training the appropriate skill?
And btw, I would like go mostly melee since I usually do conj and would like to switch it up. Still my main concern is about which weapon should I be aiming for, or if I should stop worring about finding the perfect weapon and branding any decent one I come across soon.

[One-Eyed Jack]

As mentioned, pain brands work best on fast weapons. So a spear of pain is usually better (against susceptible things) than a trident of pain (although maybe not a dtrident.) I don't remember the fastest long blade off hand (falchion?) but one has probably generated (except quick blades, fast weapons seem to generate earlier than others. You're probably drowning in orcish spears/handaxes/falchions by now.) The upshot of this is that you should probably brand a useful pain weapon (sabre, spear, whip(?), hand axe(??)) instead of waiting for a d26 demon blade, by which point the brand will have minimal impact on the game.

Using a fast weapon also lets you get mindelay quicker and with less xp invested.

[crate]

Uh, sword of the doom knight is very good since you can just not wield it when you want to cast spells. It's not like it recurses or anything. Unwielding is extremely fast.

While the pain brand itself does more damage on faster weapons there is something to be said for the non-pain portion of the weapon's damage being good also. For long blades I would usually just go with a scimitar (but if you have doom knight available, by all means use that!). If you have one a demon blade is better but the chances of you having a demon blade to pain brand when you reach 6* piety are pretty slim.