What is the worst possible build?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 9

Joined: Tuesday, 27th March 2012, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 14:25

What is the worst possible build?

What is the worst possible build? I've won 91 times, 77 of those being 15-runers. If I play a combo I'm good at, I win about a third of the time. What build is (in your opinion) the hardest to play? :mrgreen:

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1776

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 14:36

Re: What is the worst possible build?

Felid Chaos Knight is kind of tricky because Xom hurts you in all the usual ways, but none of the occaisonal fantastic items help any. A recent FeCK got a rod of venom on D1, and was killed by summoned demons soon thereafter.

For this message the author jejorda2 has received thanks:
kefka
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1249

Joined: Sunday, 18th September 2011, 02:11

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 16:06

Re: What is the worst possible build?

MuCK that stays with xom all game is largely agreed to be the worst. Not only do you have to deal with the standard mummy problems -and- the standard xom problems, you get to worry about incurable xom confusion at any time.

FeCK is also quite awful, but that's more because felids are generally terrible.

For this message the author Blade has received thanks:
kefka

Temple Termagant

Posts: 9

Joined: Tuesday, 27th March 2012, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 16:16

Re: What is the worst possible build?

These sound... fun.... :mrgreen:

I think I'll try out the MuCK. I tend to be rather bad at mummys and good at felids....

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 16:24

Re: What is the worst possible build?

DEFi is probably a terrible combo since literally nothing they come with is going to be helpful. Wa are in general a real crapshoot, so besides the MuCK, MoWa is probably a tough play. TeEE is hard due to terrible apts in earth magic which are not overcome until you can learn stone arrow where the Cj apts kick in AND you're super fragile on top of that.
HaTm again has terrible apts, but would probably be easy enough to turn into a stabber as soon as you find an early dagger. OgTm would probably be a little better since you have decent HP to start, but it might be tough to get that GSC.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 16:35

Re: What is the worst possible build?

OgTm unarmed is one of the best ogres - mainly because of Spider Form and Blade Hands - even mentioning that here is weird. Mentioning any Ha at all here is weird.
DEFi is definitely a weak start but that is all. With good tactics and strategy (read: don't hold down tab and go kiku) this is still winnable reasonably reliable. TeEE has a great starting spell and Stone Arrow is very very strong with Conj +3. Pick some overpowered god and you're set.

MuWn is a terrible build, no arguing with that; but Xom builds and builds basically forced to take horrid god wraths are still miles worse simply because optimal play doesn't near-guarantee a win. See below.

MuCK is definitely the worst build. Xom and especially the incurable confusion thing make it very hard to win even with optimal and tactically flawless play.
Probably it's followed by DDAK - almost impossible to stay with Lugonu, so you have to abandon her pretty early. Even if you dilute wraths, enjoy.
Last edited by cerebovssquire on Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 17:40, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1249

Joined: Sunday, 18th September 2011, 02:11

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 17:33

Re: What is the worst possible build?

Note that, as of trunk, wrath dilution is gone. Have fun facing the full force of Lucy's fury.

Also, a suggestion to the op: if you try these combos, do it online for bragging rights.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 19:21

Re: What is the worst possible build?

cerebovssquire wrote:OgTm unarmed is one of the best ogres - mainly because of Spider Form and Blade Hands - even mentioning that here is weird. Mentioning any Ha at all here is weird.
DEFi is definitely a weak start but that is all. With good tactics and strategy (read: don't hold down tab and go kiku) this is still winnable reasonably reliable. TeEE has a great starting spell and Stone Arrow is very very strong with Conj +3. Pick some overpowered god and you're set.

MuWn is a terrible build, no arguing with that; but Xom builds and builds basically forced to take horrid god wraths are still miles worse simply because optimal play doesn't near-guarantee a win. See below.

MuCK is definitely the worst build. Xom and especially the incurable confusion thing make it very hard to win even with optimal and tactically flawless play.
Probably it's followed by DDAK - almost impossible to stay with Lugonu, so you have to abandon her pretty early. Even if you dilute wraths, enjoy.

For the Tm recommendations I made, I was thinking to play them as Tms. I haven't tried an OgTm so I can't comment if it's viable, but it sounds terrible since you're giving up the strongest weapon in the game in a GSC to do something sub-optimal by punching things. Ha apts for Tm are terrible and unarmed is bad, combined with subpar fighting and I think this would be a rough starting game.

TeEE would be tough to get to Temple IMO. You'd have to rush Stone Arrow and hope you don't splat. Once you did that I agree that it wouldn't be too bad. DEFi is the same, once you get to temple, it would be easy enough to recover, but getting there is the tough part.

DDAK has survivability to get to temple. After that, yeah Lucy's wrath is going to make it hard to win, but if you trained up inv enough to get ~80% friendly, I would think that going Makhleb gives you a pretty good shot.

You're looking at it from the aspect of what would be hard to win. I guess I'm looking at it as what would be hard to get off the ground, which may or may not be hard to win after doing so.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 19:36

Re: What is the worst possible build?

No, I really do mean OgTm played as Tm, try it and spam Spider Form at first. Perhaps GSC > Blade Hands later on but that doesn't make Blade Hands actually hard.
TeEE - have you tried it? I just rolled up one, he is in the D:6 Temple after 9 pretty easy minutes of play and no !heal wounds used. The stones will easily get you to Stone Arrow, which makes the rest a joke. TeFi is probably a LOT worse both from "ease of starting" and "reliability to win".
HaTm is still a halfling. :P
Makhleb doesn't help at XL 8 in the Abyss.

P.S. I really like TeEE from a "fun" aspect. Hm... which god to take...
P.P.S. dear OP, are these numbers real, if yes, what the hell :) If you had played these online you could brag the house down!

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 19:45

Re: What is the worst possible build?

cerebovssquire wrote:No, I really do mean OgTm played as Tm, try it and spam Spider Form at first. Perhaps GSC > Blade Hands later on but that doesn't make Blade Hands actually hard.
TeEE - have you tried it? I just rolled up one, he is in the D:6 Temple after 9 pretty easy minutes of play and no !heal wounds used. The stones will easily get you to Stone Arrow, which makes the rest a joke. TeFi is probably a LOT worse both from "ease of starting" and "reliability to win".
HaTm is still a halfling. :P
Makhleb doesn't help at XL 8 in the Abyss.

P.S. I really like TeEE from a "fun" aspect. Hm... which god to take...
P.P.S. dear OP, are these numbers real, if yes, what the hell :) If you had played these online you could brag the house down!

I'll definitely try the OgTm after I finish my game in progress. TeEE, most people are not you and can't get to Temple in 9 minutes :).

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 19:48

Re: What is the worst possible build?

rebthor wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:No, I really do mean OgTm played as Tm, try it and spam Spider Form at first. Perhaps GSC > Blade Hands later on but that doesn't make Blade Hands actually hard.
TeEE - have you tried it? I just rolled up one, he is in the D:6 Temple after 9 pretty easy minutes of play and no !heal wounds used. The stones will easily get you to Stone Arrow, which makes the rest a joke. TeFi is probably a LOT worse both from "ease of starting" and "reliability to win".
HaTm is still a halfling. :P
Makhleb doesn't help at XL 8 in the Abyss.

P.S. I really like TeEE from a "fun" aspect. Hm... which god to take...
P.P.S. dear OP, are these numbers real, if yes, what the hell :) If you had played these online you could brag the house down!

I'll definitely try the OgTm after I finish my game in progress. TeEE, most people are not you and can't get to Temple in 9 minutes :).


a $ the +2 cloak of Uliow {MR Int+3 Dam+5} 708 gold
f $ the +3 robe of Clouds {+Lev rElec} 735 gold
a - a +1,+2 whip of electrocution (weapon)
q - a +2 cap (worn)
v - a +2 orcish robe (worn)
E - a +2 buckler (worn)
o - 3 potions of might
p - 2 potions of heal wounds

i am obviously not biased in the least
(Seriously though, not a very hard build just with Stone Arrow, though the HP are ugh)

EDIT: Lair:1 Book of the Sky, this Te"EE" is set to win :P
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 20:43

Re: What is the worst possible build?

OgTm is great after you get spider form reliably castable then it's either ice form or blade hands which will be pretty good through out a 3 rune win.

OR

You can get the first mace you find and eventually learn Statue form for that awesome GSC statue-form Ogre = insane amounts of HP and partial torment resistance which sounds like a sweet deal.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Temple Termagant

Posts: 9

Joined: Tuesday, 27th March 2012, 20:34

Post Thursday, 29th March 2012, 17:40

Re: What is the worst possible build?

OgTm sounds ... perfect.

I'll try it out after I kill my current MuCK. I actually managed to survive it so far to D:15, but I almost had YASD in the lair. Hopefully, this won't become a YASW. (I hate winning easily even more than I hate losing)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Thursday, 29th March 2012, 18:31

Re: What is the worst possible build?

I hope you stuck with Xom and didn't become yet another kiku necrusader. :)

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 431

Joined: Friday, 30th September 2011, 01:00

Post Tuesday, 3rd April 2012, 10:49

Re: What is the worst possible build?

Here's an idea. Play as a Random Species Wanderer every game, for 100 games (or 50 if 100 is too much, though from the sounds of it, I doubt 100 will satisfy YOU ;p), and manually log all your games in a journal (write down key events that happen on each floor, describe fights against Uniques or tough enemies, mention which noteworthy items you find that you end up using, deaths and wins etc.), then when you're finished, summarize your overall thoughts on the project and then show us the whole thing. :) I would totally read something like that! Heck, I'd do that myself, except I've never even won once yet and you're a veteran at it.

Good luck with the other builds you're currently doing, though!

Also: it's awesome that with so many victories, you're STILL never bored with this game. :) Crawl is pretty awesome like that, isn't it? Crawl is a lifestyle. A walk.
--Schwa, your local muse forever and long-time High Elf fangirl ^_~
(also the master of Quadri-Birds)

TheProvocateur: I like how we're sprinting at a pile of greater mummies

For this message the author SchwaWarrior has received thanks:
kefka

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1244

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Tuesday, 3rd April 2012, 17:38

Re: What is the worst possible build?

How about DDPr who stays with Zin?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Tuesday, 3rd April 2012, 17:50

Re: What is the worst possible build?

DDCK of Xom sounds a lot worse. Zin is actually sort of useful instead of a penalty.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 9

Joined: Tuesday, 27th March 2012, 20:34

Post Tuesday, 3rd April 2012, 17:51

Re: What is the worst possible build?

SchwaWarrior wrote:Here's an idea. Play as a Random Species Wanderer every game, for 100 games (or 50 if 100 is too much, though from the sounds of it, I doubt 100 will satisfy YOU ;p), and manually log all your games in a journal (write down key events that happen on each floor, describe fights against Uniques or tough enemies, mention which noteworthy items you find that you end up using, deaths and wins etc.), then when you're finished, summarize your overall thoughts on the project and then show us the whole thing. :) I would totally read something like that! Heck, I'd do that myself, except I've never even won once yet and you're a veteran at it.

Good luck with the other builds you're currently doing, though!

Also: it's awesome that with so many victories, you're STILL never bored with this game. :) Crawl is pretty awesome like that, isn't it? Crawl is a lifestyle. A walk.


Yes. 8-)
Yes. :)
Yes. :D
Yes. :lol:
Yes. :twisted:
Yes. :ugeek:

...but I'll probably only choose the absolute worst combinations and stat rolls to describe in full. :mrgreen:

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Tuesday, 3rd April 2012, 18:51

Re: What is the worst possible build?

That doesn't help against the chance of being killed without an escape route available on the first few levels, which is the reason why CK is so crappy. And good or even decent vampiric weapons are really rare, especially without Okawaru/Trog. Vampiric Draining, okay. But that isn't enough to compensate general CK crappiness and isn't enough to heal up enough past a certain point in the game (mid-late-dungeon or so, I guess).

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Tuesday, 25th January 2011, 14:24

Post Wednesday, 4th April 2012, 12:17

Re: What is the worst possible build?

Note that Trunk had a few recent commits to make Xom a little less deadly early on...

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.