Is Dispel Undead necessary?

[lazylink]

I usually play SpVM and Dispel undead is a great spell, however it is highly specialized. My general strategy has been training Necromancy to learn Dispel Undead in order to clear the Crypt, however in order in order for DU to be any use I need to raise Necromancy at least to level 15. That is a lot of experience that could be put to use elsewhere. I'd like to know if any blasty characters have gone without Dispel Undead, instead using Orb of Destruction or something else.

[Happy Corner]

It's not entirely necessary, no. All the undead monsters can be killed at least as efficiently by the top-level blasty spells, which you're probably aiming for anyway. Some of those even have advantages over Dispel Undead (blast area, smite targeting, being from schools you'd rather learn, etc).

When I went through Crypt/Tomb with a 15-runer DSWz, I almost forgot I'd learned Dispel Undead, because I was too busy Fire Storming anything that looked even vaguely threatening. I didn't regret having put levels into Necromancy, though, cause I needed Necromutation (it was almost mandatory for that character, since I didn't find a single amulet of resist mutation the entire fucking run).

[crate]

I don't learn dispel undead very often unless I have high necro skill for other spells, and then I'll pick it up for crypt and then amnesia it afterward usually (or learn it for tomb if I'm doing tomb). You don't need 15 necro for it to be useful though; it ignores AC so if you have it castable at a good success rate it's automatically useful on skeletal warriors, bone dragons, liches, and curse skulls.

All my characters tend to kill stuff with weapons so having a spell that is 5 levels and only significantly better than pressing tab against two enemies I care about (liches/ancient liches) is too much of an investment.

[dassem]

Well, firestorm is a very good substitute.

I have had a game where I didn't find dispel undead until far too late, so I had to quaff potions of brilliance or switch items to cast other suitably powerful spells from different schools.
Also the first time I did the traditional switch to TSO just before the crypt, I was more than a little surprised that TSO did not approve of casting dispel undead and regeneration.

[KoboldLord]

Completely non-essential for almost all characters. It's a very nice bonus if you're planning to use some of the higher-level necromancy spells anyway, like Revivification or Death's Door, but if you're not really using anything higher than Regeneration you can just hit undead monsters one extra time with your main attack. Dispel Undead is very nice when you have a combat focus on something that most undead resist, though, like a Poison Arrow build or an ice magic build that hasn't run into Throw Icicle.

8 necromancy should be more than adequate to kill anything you want re-dead. You'll still 3-shot ancient liches with that much, and bone dragons can be kited to death as normal. Getting to the point where you can 2-shot ancient liches is probably not worth it, even on most necromancer builds.

[lazylink]

Completely non-essential for almost all characters. It's a very nice bonus if you're planning to use some of the higher-level necromancy spells anyway, like Revivification or Death's Door, but if you're not really using anything higher than Regeneration you can just hit undead monsters one extra time with your main attack. Dispel Undead is very nice when you have a combat focus on something that most undead resist, though, like a Poison Arrow build or an ice magic build that hasn't run into Throw Icicle.

8 necromancy should be more than adequate to kill anything you want re-dead. You'll still 3-shot ancient liches with that much, and bone dragons can be kited to death as normal. Getting to the point where you can 2-shot ancient liches is probably not worth it, even on most necromancer builds.

I am in fact doing a Poison Arrow build, so I was wondering if Orb of Destruction would be enough to get me through. Although if you say 8 necromancy is enough I might as well do it since Necromancy has other good tools like sublimation and animate dead. The problem with the Poison Arrow build is undead and large packs of poison resistant enemies (including undead), my (hopeful) plan to solve these problems is to get Poison Arrow, Orb of Destruction, Mephitic CLoud and Mystic Blast and rely on those exclusively as I raise my Conjuration and Fire Magic to get Fire Storm. If anybody has any other suggestions I would appreciate it.

[Happy Corner]

Poisonous Cloud > Mephitic Cloud.

Branching into Fire Magic isn't the worst plan for you, especially if you manage to find Ignite Fire. Poisonous Cloud + Ignite Fire is like a poor man's Fire Storm, and Ignite Poison on its own is really handy against a variety of annoying (and often poison-resisting) enemies... killer bees, hydras, nagas, etc. It hits everything on the screen at once, too (similar to Ozocubu's Refrigeration).

Alternately, you might go into Air Magic instead (which is easier for Spriggans to learn). You'll have a chance to build that up while you're using Mephitic Cloud and Poisonous Cloud. Swiftness won't be useful to you, but Repel/Deflect Missiles will, and Air Magic has some good midgame blasty spells. Lightning Bolt is nice against undead groups, since it can bounce. Finally, Tornado - while recently nerfed - is still pretty nice, and unlike Fire Storm it doesn't require you to raise your horrible Conjurations.

[KoboldLord]

I am in fact doing a Poison Arrow build, so I was wondering if Orb of Destruction would be enough to get me through. Although if you say 8 necromancy is enough I might as well do it since Necromancy has other good tools like sublimation and animate dead. The problem with the Poison Arrow build is undead and large packs of poison resistant enemies (including undead), my (hopeful) plan to solve these problems is to get Poison Arrow, Orb of Destruction, Mephitic CLoud and Mystic Blast and rely on those exclusively as I raise my Conjuration and Fire Magic to get Fire Storm. If anybody has any other suggestions I would appreciate it.

Eh, I wouldn't try getting by on Orb of Destruction. It's a strong spell, but it's also fussy. One of the prime targets you'd want Dispel Undead for would be ancient liches, and a couple of the annoying things they do involve summoning screens full of chaff that will block your Orbs of Destruction from getting to them. I've squeaked by with Mystic Blast, but that's not to say it's very comfortable to do so.

[Zicher]

As a SpVM I always learn Dispel Undead the moment I find it. I don't like branching into Fire or Ice for the storms with a PAGG build (could be viable, but it's too much out of style for me), Necromancy at 8-10 seems to make DU reliable enough even against high-level undead and it is way more effective than PA or OOD. Doubly so if count in the PP value.
If you would be going for the extended endgame, you would certainly notice the effect wa more than in a 3-rune game.

[Stormfox]

Given that Dispel Undead has been moved to a less common book as of 0.10 (book of Death instead of book of Necromancy), it's a lot more necessary to find ways to get by without it. But it does do very respectable damage for its cost.

[sir_laser]

I never use Orb of Destruction, personally. It takes a little too long to set up IMHO. Poison Arrow does so much impact damage aside from its poison damage that I use it instead of Iron Shot (higher range + poison).

When I went through Crypt/Tomb with a 15-runer DSWz, I almost forgot I'd learned Dispel Undead, because I was too busy Fire Storming anything that looked even vaguely threatening.

Yeah, but w/ Fire Storm you could also clear a 30 pan lord ziggurat floor, or Tomb:3 in a few turns. Comparing Dispel Undead with Fire Storm is like comparing Justin Bieber with Tupac.

[Happy Corner]

Yeah, but w/ Fire Storm you could also clear a 30 pan lord ziggurat floor, or Tomb:3 in a few turns. Comparing Dispel Undead with Fire Storm is like comparing Justin Bieber with Tupac.

Heh heh. My woman would like that, she's a Tupac fan (and Bieber hater) herself.

You're right, though. I should have added that even earlier in that run, lacking Dispel Undead wouldn't have killed me. Way before Fire Storm, I was using Sticky Flame and Fireball and Bolt of Magma. Those spells are much closer to Dispel Undead's level, and they proved pretty good anti-undead weapons, too. Of course, maybe someone with a less blasty school of magic might get more use out of Dispel Undead, but it's still not essential.