The Tavern

Hi there, I have 2 questions that have been bugging me for a while.

1. This may sound silly but I'm a little confused about piety gain with Sif Muna, specifically with Summoners. I know that you gain piety with Sif by casting spells but does that mean any spell? I ask because when I was casting summoning spells, I wasn't getting the "(god name) is pleased with you". Was I still gaining piety?

2. I've heard the term "Minimum Delay" quite alot. Can anyone explain what it is please?

I don't know how Sif piety gain works.
Minimum delay is when you're attacking with your weapon as fast as you will ever attack with it. If you press @ the message you see when at minimum delay is typically "your attack speed is quite fast."

Sif Muna piety is earned by training magic skills. I don't know if there's a higher weight placed on earning skill levels or if it's just a straight conversion of XP devoted to magic skills.

Attack delay details can be learned about here: http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=attack+delay

I suppose Sif piety USED to be directly related to casting spells in 0.8 and earlier, back when victory dancing was still around.
Cast the spell => puts spare XP into the skill => trains it => gained Sif piety.
But now, you can hack things to death with an axe and still gain Sif piety as long as that hacking is putting XP into your spell skills. Makes things a tad bit easier, actually.

Barring a royal misremembering accident (these have been happening a bit too often as of late), in ancient versions you didn't even need to put exp into skills - a Mummy could go to the temple, convert, and cast magic dart at a wall until Sif gifted you every spell in the game.

That mummy casting at a wall needed exp pool. It's based on exp put into spell schools. And piety gain was faster in early versions. If I remember right, long ago, you could also sac items on altar for piety. Good riddance to that.

It just occurred to me, even though I worship Sif quite a lot, I'm still not exactly sure how her piety works. I always assumed it depended upon how much you leveled a skill up, not the amount of experience put in, so I always tried holding off training the skills I had good apts for until I got to her altar. e.g. training conjurations from 26 to 27 will give you the same piety as training it from 1 to 2. Is this the case? Do different skills give different amounts of piety for raising them? Or am I completely wrong, and it's just the total amount of exp you put into your magic skills?

zrn wrote:It just occurred to me, even though I worship Sif quite a lot, I'm still not exactly sure how her piety works. I always assumed it depended upon how much you leveled a skill up, not the amount of experience put in, so I always tried holding off training the skills I had good apts for until I got to her altar. e.g. training conjurations from 26 to 27 will give you the same piety as training it from 1 to 2. Is this the case? Do different skills give different amounts of piety for raising them? Or am I completely wrong, and it's just the total amount of exp you put into your magic skills?

The piety gain depends on how much skill points you gained. Basically, it means it just depends on XP. Aptitudes have no effect.

galehar wrote:The piety gain depends on how much skill points you gained. Basically, it means it just depends on XP. Aptitudes have no effect.

So there's no point in holding off training skills before you get to the temple? Putting 100 xp into a level 10 skill will give you the same piety as putting the same xp into a level 1 skill?

galehar wrote:
zrn wrote:It just occurred to me, even though I worship Sif quite a lot, I'm still not exactly sure how her piety works. I always assumed it depended upon how much you leveled a skill up, not the amount of experience put in, so I always tried holding off training the skills I had good apts for until I got to her altar. e.g. training conjurations from 26 to 27 will give you the same piety as training it from 1 to 2. Is this the case? Do different skills give different amounts of piety for raising them? Or am I completely wrong, and it's just the total amount of exp you put into your magic skills?

The piety gain depends on how much skill points you gained. Basically, it means it just depends on XP. Aptitudes have no effect.

So what happens if I have (for some reason) have 27/27 in all skills? Would my piety never rise and I wouldn't be given books?

zrn wrote:
galehar wrote:The piety gain depends on how much skill points you gained. Basically, it means it just depends on XP. Aptitudes have no effect.

So there's no point in holding off training skills before you get to the temple? Putting 100 xp into a level 10 skill will give you the same piety as putting the same xp into a level 1 skill?

The same 100 XP won't translate into the same amount of skill points at XL1 and XL10, because the conversion rate as changed. So even if you gain XP much quicker later on, the piety gain rate shouldn't change much.
And to answer your question, yes, there's no point in holding off training skills before the temple. When you start worshipping Sif, you'll gain the same piety from training a level 1 skill or a level 10 one.

dmurray wrote:So what happens if I have (for some reason) have 27/27 in all skills? Would my piety never rise and I wouldn't be given books?

Yes, if you max all your magic skills, you can't get anymore Sif piety.

galehar wrote:Yes, if you max all your magic skills, you can't get anymore Sif piety.

Isn't that a bit short sighted? In that I have to keep using different magic skills to keep myself from being removed from the religion?

It seems pretty reasonable that when you have nothing more to learn, the god who cares about worshippers gaining knowledge is no longer interested in you.

And it's not something that ever happens short of insane multi-Zig characters, so it's a non-issue anyway.

MarvinPA wrote:It seems pretty reasonable that when you have nothing more to learn, the god who cares about worshippers gaining knowledge is no longer interested in you.

And it's not something that ever happens short of insane multi-Zig characters, so it's a non-issue anyway.

Maybe I'm getting confused in training and way off the topic but, if I make sure there's a * next to the skill, for exaple... summoning and I use spells that aren't summoning (say I use fire spells), does XP still get put into the summoning skill and if so, it'll obviously effect piety, right?

dmurray wrote:
MarvinPA wrote:It seems pretty reasonable that when you have nothing more to learn, the god who cares about worshippers gaining knowledge is no longer interested in you.

And it's not something that ever happens short of insane multi-Zig characters, so it's a non-issue anyway.

Maybe I'm getting confused in training and way off the topic but, if I make sure there's a * next to the skill, for exaple... summoning and I use spells that aren't summoning (say I use fire spells), does XP still get put into the summoning skill and if so, it'll obviously effect piety, right?

IIRC this is true. Which, under manual training, could potentially lead to 6* piety without ever casting any spells - just memorise them, focus on the appropriate skills, don't train others, and you're all set up.

minmay wrote:(why you went Sif on a character who wanted to avoid casting spells is another issue)

Maybe some people want channeling to restore mana for guardian spirit.

Jabberwocky wrote:
minmay wrote:(why you went Sif on a character who wanted to avoid casting spells is another issue)

Maybe some people want channeling to restore mana for guardian spirit.

Ack! I want to try that! Brilliant idea!

minmay wrote:(why you went Sif on a character who wanted to avoid casting spells is another issue)

Actually, I was wondering what happens if I did somehow max all my skills since I would rather not have to deal with any wrath. :oops:

minmay wrote:(why you went Sif on a character who wanted to avoid casting spells is another issue)

Not quite necessary to "avoid" spells. I can imagine trollish casters who do better ripping and tearing everything with their claws while training spells schools (and thus gaining Sif piety) at least to a level, when the school's spells are at a reasonable failure level. Borderline, but still valid, I'd say.

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Sif Piety Gain and Minimum Delay

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