Small stabbers: what do I do with all these enchant scrolls?

[daggaz]

Here's my issue: As a kobold assassin, I like stabbing things with small blades. But small blades seem to be, in my opinion, rather borked when it comes damage output. The main thinking behind this is I believe, that extra stabbing damage should be balanced by less consistent "normal" damage. Unfortunately, you cant really stab the vast majority of monsters as a pure assassin, at least not until extended where you have the skills and resources to get most opponents into stabbable situations without being caught by others..

So in that respect, you get a much smaller base die (obviously this has to be) as well as wierdness with egos. Flaming and freezing (ice im looking at you) are weighted down, so its like a measly 1-3 damage. Keep in mind, freezing is the all-purpose brand for most of the game. Poison isnt weighted, but while awesome from the start to lair, it quickly wears off in effectiveness. Pain and distortion are both very rare, and while you can tweak pain by having the right god and by pimping necromancy, its a huge investment. Distortion has all the obvious drawbacks as usual. Electricity is not weighted, but its limited to non-flying creatures so suddenly hmm.. Holy is great for the endgame (and we will get to that) but otherwise highly situational. And then of course there is speed. Which is all but USELESS in the face of GDR. Faster does not equal more damage by any metric, once monsters can guard against it and you have such piddling base damage to start with.

You hit the orc captain, but do no damage.
You hit the orc captain, but do no damage.
You hit the orc captain, but do no damage.
The orc captain hits you. YIKES! etc etc..

So what I usually end up doing is saving my scrolls, hoping for electricity (seems the best bet but god it is so rare), worshipping Oka, and usually he drops or I find a randart which is superior and unenchantable before I get around to using them. At which point, its kind of moot to have the scrolls. Ive started just burning them on the first semi decent small blade I find knowing I will ultimately ditch it, but it just seems kind of lame.

Same kind of issue with enchant armor scrolls... save six or so in case you find a good dragon armor like mottled or steam or pearl!, but these are semi-rare and almost always never with any ego, so I end up going with my +2 cloak of MR etc.

Just seems that there is no optimal use of scrolls for small race stabbers. What do you guys do? (Also I am well aware of finding a decent demonblade and switching to longblades for extended etc., but was curious about solutions that dont involve massively changing your build later in the game.)

[crate]

If you are an enchanter the only weapon you need is the one that you have equipped on turn 0. For stabbing enchantment doesn't really matter so it doesn't even really matter if you enchant it. If you want a weapon that is better when you're not stabbing things, I recommend acquirement and hope for a quick blade. If you want to kill things without always stabbing then worship kiku.

If you're not an enchanter you can't reliably stab things for quite some time anyway so build your character around that and then you can pick up stabbing later if you like.

For armour, enchant your aux armour then just wear the best ego robe you find.

Also as an aside...

And then of course there is speed. Which is all but USELESS in the face of GDR.

Enemies do not have GDR.

[daggaz]

Assassin, not enchanter. As for "building your character around not being able to stab for quite some time if not an enchanter" that is basically the point of this thread and my question... how do other crawlites optimise weapon choice/use of enchantment scrolls when using a small race assassin?

Enemies do not have GDR.

The orc captain might not, but his runed plate mail sure does. How else do you explain the "but do no damage" message? Could swear Ive seen it on non armor wearing monsters as well... i am playing version 9.0 btw..


As for wearing your best ego robe and lugging around an extra suit of armor.. *sighs* it sure would be nice if we could apply egos somehow to dragon armors at least, at cost of course. or at least have them a bit more commonly found with egos applied.

[crate]

Enemies do not have GDR. GDR is different from AC.

If you are an assassin it might help you to pretend you picked a shortblade gladiator, because that is basically what an assassin is.

[daggaz]

That is exactly how I play, and if you would take a second to think about what I am asking instead of jumping on my toes, you would realize that is what I am asking as well. How do you optimize shortblades for melee play? Simple as that.

For example: Ok, not GDR. AC then. Little fast blades are pointless against high AC enemies. Whereas a large base damage weapon is slower, it will consistently do damage to enemies at all levels, with the added bonus that freezing is a great brand. A dagger of speed or even a sabre just cant cut it. They do more damage earlier, but quickly hit a point where they are actually useless. The supposed balance isnt actually balanced. Quickblades can overcome this, IF you find one/are gifted one, and IF you can get enough extra damage on them. Once again, you get shafted in the ego department here, doubly so because they are so rare, its not like you get much choice. Most of the time, they are without ego. Hence the great big IF.

It just seems more and more like shortblades are far too dependent on pure luck of the RNG (getting a +10 damage blade which is generally a randart or unrandart and therefor not enchantable) and more often than not, after clearing orc and elves and D27, your best choice is switching out to longblades after all.

[some12fat2move]

Short blades do very little straight-up damage but absolutely murder when stabbing. Simply put, they're not suited for trading blows, they're for use in conjunction with things like meph/ensorcelled/passwall/invis and other things that help you get that super stab.

[crate]

Well if you want to play a shortblade gladiator then you want to acquire a quickblade and enchant it, or find an elec weapon, or worship kiku/trog. Nothing other than armoured orcs until after lair really has much AC (though elephants and death yaks will be awful to kill without venom/elec/god abilities, probably); shortblades are fine for that portion of the game and then you can decide what to do based on what you've found.

Short blades are not supposed to be as good as other weapons for non-stabbing play, so it's reasonable to expect that they aren't as good as other weapons for non-stabbing play. This is fine because stabbing is ridiculously powerful.

edit: Also shortblade centaur is pretty good but this is because kicks are the best aux attack in the game

[BlackSheep]

Even enchanters, who very early get the ability to initiate stabs consistently, need to branch out a bit to handle things that they can't disable. Now, that way may be "the stairs,' but that's the way it goes. Not every character is going to be suited to destroy every obstacle as soon as it's encountered.

[Blyxx]

Depending on your species and what method you use for stabbing, there are probably 3 good options I see for those scrolls:

1. Enchant your short blade. Enchant a sabre with a good brand (elec probably, else maybe speed if you do a lot of distraction stabs), or a quickblade.
2. Enchant a missile weapon. Crossbow is probably best for kobolds with their +2 apt (hope you pumped some str if you plan on using crossbow a lot though!), but sling would work too for any of the little stabbers.
3. Save them for a long blade switch later. Demon blade and double sword are best options.

You don't want to use them on a dagger because the extra damage they provide on a stab is inconsequential...save them for something that'll help you kill unstabbable foes.

[Psieye]

2. Enchant a missile weapon. Crossbow is probably best for kobolds with their +2 apt (hope you pumped some str if you plan on using crossbow a lot though!), but sling would work too for any of the little stabbers.

This is the solution I'd recommend for you. You seem like you don't want to switch over to longblades, continuing to melee with shortblades. In which case, you put your scrolls into a launcher - optionally you can then brand that launcher through TSO later.

If you're up against high AC targets, in the earlygame you use your blowgun. Later on, you should have branched out to some means of dealing with rPois high-AC enemies - a launcher, a god, longblades or magic.

[njvack]

If you want to kill things without always stabbing then worship kiku.

Or Lugonu. Distortion daggers are badass.

[daggaz]

Yeah, didnt think they should be the end all do all, obviously there cant be a single win button in the game. Seems like I was going more or less the right route then (elec/quickblade/longblade depending on RNG), tho I will have to think about crossbows some more. I usually just used those to pick off the cowards who run.

[crate]

Also:

They do more damage earlier, but quickly hit a point where they are actually useless.

This is actually a common misconception; the best weapons in the game at low skill are actually (usually) twohanders or big onehanders, especially if you have a little bit of fighting skill (a lajatang at 0 skill outdamages any other 0-skill weapon in the game I believe, except maybe a GSC). The main drawback of using big weapons at low skill is high variance.

[Lasty]

I'm surprised needles haven't come up here. Needles are very effective against early game threats like Orc Warriors even w/o training throwing, and after training throwing they can allow stabs against most opponents. The only catch is that needlestabbing requires a source of debilitating needles, which are relatively rare, so you pretty much need ammo gifts from a god.

[Psieye]

Needles haven't, but blowguns have been mentioned.

[daggaz]

I'm surprised needles haven't come up here. Needles are very effective against early game threats like Orc Warriors even w/o training throwing, and after training throwing they can allow stabs against most opponents. The only catch is that needlestabbing requires a source of debilitating needles, which are relatively rare, so you pretty much need ammo gifts from a god.

Early game isnt the issue, its what to do as you get deeper and enemies get progressively harder and your shortblades cut progressively less. Needles are of course awesome, but as you say, the good ones are all too rare to depend on (and you will lose them eventually even should you find them), and as well they eventually lose their effectivity, too.

[Psieye]

Early game isnt the issue, its what to do as you get deeper and enemies get progressively harder and your shortblades cut progressively less. Needles are of course awesome, but as you say, the good ones are all too rare to depend on (and you will lose them eventually even should you find them), and as well they eventually lose their effectivity, too.

Actually no - provided it's not an rPois opponent, needles never lose their effectivity, provided you keep up with the Throwing skill investment.

[crate]

The needles that care about throwing skill are needles that don't check rPois.

[Psieye]

if 2+ 1d(3 + Throwing Skill + Blowgun To-Hit) is greater than the monster's HD

Oh shit you're right. At masterful throwing skill it's not a stretch to get 50% proc chance on HD 20 things. Drat, I have this intense desire to needle stab pan lords now. Will have to get to it once I'm less busy.

[Lasty]

the good ones are all too rare to depend on

Well, unless you pick Trog or Okawaru, both of whom are great for assassins. If you aren't picking one of those two, you're probably picking Kiku, Fedhas, or Makhleb, all of whom give you alternative ways to kill problematic baddies.

[pikkle]

Sorry to noob it up in here, but what needles to needle-stabbers use?

[Blyxx]

Paralysis is ideal, otherwise sleeping or confusion.

[varsovie]

Frenzy is you find is the best escape option you have (and it's fun to use). And curare is just awesome.

You may also want a branded sabre in your inventory in case you cannot stab or flee.

[Blyxx]

Frenzy is you find is the best escape option you have (and it's fun to use).

When I read your post, I thought "how does making an enemy berserk (and thus faster) make it easier to escape?", so I looked up the knowledge bot entry on needles of frenzy.

  Code:

Causes berserk and neutrality.

Neutrality...

I never knew that it makes them neutral! In the right situation, that's like giving you a brother in arms, I won't be leaving them on the floor with needle users anymore...

[varsovie]

Glad you find out .

My favorite tactic is to use them on heavy melee in the middle of some mage (eg Orc knight next to Orc priests), then finish the slowed/wounded "ally".