What do you consider some of the best 15-rune builds?

[oiseaux]

So far my best was a 6-rune win on an MfCr back in 0.8, if I remember correctly. I really want to push for a 15-rune win, but it's been eluding me thus far.

What do you consider some of the best builds for an easy, (relatively) no-nonsense 15-rune win in 0.10? I'm finding MfSk hard to get off the ground, but once you get a decent polearm and take Oka, you just need to plow through until you can switch to TSO (before Crypt usually) for that blessed trishula/bardiche and end-game support.

[cerebovssquire]

I'd say the easiest right now is DDEE. You have great single-target conjurations, a good way to deal mass area damage even if you are surrounded, tons of HP, damage reduction even on smiting and hellfire, Makhleb, and last but not least one of the strongest and most reliable ways to ninja runes. I killed all the lords without a problem using Iron Shot/LCS/Shatter, so if you don't want to ninja that isn't really a problem.

DEFE and DEIE are very easy. With Vehumet you should get one of the storms up pretty soon, and your magic apts will allow you to get Haste, Controlled Blink, some high-level necromancy spells (Borgnjor's Revivication and Death's Door, and if you want Necromutation you could get it too I guess). HE works decently too, though you should probably put more emphasis on hybridising here. But they have good apts for Charms, Translocations, Conjurations and Fire/Ice Magic too. You could also consider Air Magic.

The classic spellless-heavy-armour-melee Okawaru > TSO character is simple and pretty solid. I got my first win with one of these (DDFi) and as long as you don't treat Tomb like the Orcish Mines it's very easy. Two-handers are even stronger than they usually are in extended, because shield help so little, so I'd recommend MiGl (axes) or something. Don't forget to get a lot of Invocations skill for good Cleansing Flame damage. You don't really have anything much better to put your experience in if you don't want to experiment with heavy armour casting.
I also like Okawaru > TSO > Zin. Zin offers protection from a lot of annoying stuff in extended (miasma, mutations, hell effects, stat loss, etc), can imprison even Executioners, Fiends and pan lords, and Sanctuary offers a way out of almost any situation bar paralysis and random teleporting on a totally unexplored very dangerous level (I once had problems on Tomb:2, and only survived closely, but otherwise I never had to fear anything much on my other Zin wins). You keep TSO's biggest benefit, a holy wrath weapon, and trade healing-for-kills and angels for something of comparable strength and greater reliability. You can also cure all mutations you might have amassed by now, for instance from Zot or Elf.

Basically every high-level character who can cast Haste, Swiftness, Controlled Blink and Apportation and has a strong melee weapon can go TSO and win quite easily, too. High Elves, Humans, Centaurs, Deep Dwarves, many character types are suitable for this crusader/warper type. Medium armour (EV -2/-3), MDA or robes are the best picks for these, depending on race.

Strong melee weapons for blessing, ordered by class, are roughly this. The rest is pretty bad.

Axes: Executioner's axe > battleaxe > broad axe (unsure about the last two since I've never used either, but I don't know if the rather weak shield or 3 base damage is worth more. Tending towards the latter though)

Long blades: Triple sword > demon blade > double sword

Polearms: Bardiche > trishula (this is a tough once. But after I've allruned one or two holy bardiche and two trishula characters I think the bardiche is easier. It deals more damage and good luck blocking that burst of hellfire with your shield) Reaching really does make a different when you can reach through other monsters to get to tormentors, hellfirers and smiters quickly, and walking one step less towards that hellion/tormentor can be a boon too. I have one memorable Cerebov fight where I was berserk and he summoned a tormentor behind him; I could just oneshot the tormentor and continue killing Cerebov.

Short Blades: you probably don't want to be using these anyway, but if you must for whatever reason, use a quickblade

Maces: demon whip > eveningstar if you really must. I think now that great maces are buffed they are still inferior to all other decent two-handers.

Staves: can't say if a holy lajatang is worth much because I have never used one but looking at the numbers they are really bad even with buffed base damage. For instance, the executioner's axe will be 20/7/holy wrath, battle axe is 17/7/holy wrath, the bardiche will be 18/7/reaching/holy wrath, the great mace is better at 18/7/holy wrath. The lajatang is 16/7/holy wrath. Sure, it takes only 14 skill, but I don't think experience is much of a problem by extended.
(damage/min delay/brands)
If you want to use a staff I'd say take a staff of air or earth if you are good at the corresponding skill. It was good on my DDEE anyway.

[CommanderC]

If you want to try TSO, you should know that the best weapon you can bless is a longbow. Also, don't forget that you can haste your angels.

My recommendation is a MuSu of Sif Muna. Summon Dragon is insanely powerful.

[srulz]

snip

Great post cerebovssquire, thanks! One thing though, I have this unholy love towards anything unarmed, so what do you think about Unarmed + Shield combination in extended lategame?

And why exactly do you say "shield help so little"?

And would a GSC of Holy Wrath actually trumps everything else?

[cerebovssquire]

I've heard that a longbow of holy wrath is the best weapon for extended; I'm sure about that myself because when I tried it it was pretty good but didn't feel like the best I've had so far. This could also be because that char had no slaying, so I can't say much regarding that. We're talking about my third win here too, so it's about 8 months ago and I don't remember the exact damage I was dealing.
The GSC of holy wrath is definitely the strongest melee weapon for extended (except great randarts), but I didn't include it in my post because it implies that you're playing Og or Tr and neither of these are species I'd recommend to anyone who wants to beat extended for the first time.
I say melee weapon because Dragon Form will still deal more damage than a holy GSC without Statue Form. I do remember someone (mikee) playing a statue form holy GSC OgEE; the damage was crazy, he oneshotted a greater mummy, twoshotted Geryon and, if I remember correctly, Gloorx Vloq. I don't think that a normal dragonformer will do this. That OgEE thing is probably one of the best characters for raw melee damage in extended that's realistically creatable without scumming ziggurats (sure, a dragonform Op with 8 randart +8 rings of slaying and 72 STR from these randart rings is going to be stronger but good luck getting that!). U'm not recommending it for your first, though, it's going to be hard work to get to extended with OgEE and it isn't even the strongest melee character there - you'll deal insane amounts of damage but are going to be much more of a glass cannon than say, MfSk.

In extended, the main threats are torment, hellfire and paralysis. MR and summons help against paralysis, only LoS tricks and killing things fast and DD damage shaving help against hellfire, and there are several ways against torment but none involve shields. There is some physical damage (melee pan lords, executioners, reapers...) but never to an extent that's threatening enough to justify giving up two-handers. There are exceptions, of course: if you're using maces a scourge is an optimal choice. But the easiest time with spellless melee characters of TSO has always been those with executioner's axes to me.

Unarmed is still good, and of course you usually want to use a shield with that (if you're not using Blade Hands in every fight). I once allruned an unarmed spellless GhAr; it was okay but it only became really easy once I got the Staff of Dispater. I couldn't even melee Cerebov with all potion buffs, and this was in CPM. So if you can, I'd always recommend combining it with transmutations (Blade Hands, Statue Form and Dragon Form, depending on character type and species and possibly adding Necromutation for certain areas).

[Zicher]

In extended endgame, Poison Arrow Gatling Gun (aka SpVM of Vehumet) works surprisingly well.
You have a decent edge for conjurations by that time ,Poison Arrow as the main, IMB/IOOD as a side conjuration (branch into storms as you wish), Dispel Undead and Abjuration for when needed, Haste, DMsl and some nice EV for defence, and always the Sp's speed for simply outrunning trouble.
Just don't expect to kill any of the Hell/Pan bosses (_some_ can go). Discretion is certainly the better part of valor here (i.e. ninjaing the runes is the way to go).
Not easy by any means, but definitely a fun build and one that can works.

And the classic Oka -> TSO works always well. MiFi or MiGl using long blades would be my favourite build here, even with no spells needed. You can really build a tank with this option.

Anyway, be prepared for some really nasty times, and always remember, that no tank can stand a nuclear bombardment (aka hellfire/torment storm).

[Mankeli]

I've heard that a longbow of holy wrath is the best weapon for extended; I'm sure about that myself because when I tried it it was pretty good but didn't feel like the best I've had so far.

With ranged weapons of holy wrath there is the advantage of one-shotting hellions rather noiselessly at the edges of your LOS . My EV-based KoHu of TSO is having a great time crossbow all-runing with charms and translocations buffs but I would not recommend this for a first all-runer because the early and midgame were not too easy.

My second win overall, first all-runer and first Zig clearer was a SETr of Chei back in 0.6 when Haste, and the loss of it, was even greater than now. Chei has some crippling disadvantages but nothing a semi-controlled blink can't overcome. But be prepared to suck in late-midgame -cTele places (Elf!) and suck even harder before you can do semi-controlled blinks. Sludge Elves have less HP now but Chei has been made more powerful by reducing the gains of haste and reworking how the piety gain works (no more making of ponderous items). I guess Chei makes me play more carefully because I don't think Chei is considered particularly strong by others.

I think best candidates overall are melee-hybrids (I don't care much for blasters) who manage to find an amulet of rage early on. Rage will take you through early and midgame and you can build up your spellskills for nice buffs to be used later on.

If you don't mind scumming (for decks in Pan particularly), then SpEn of Nemelex might be your choice of combo. In 0.6 I managed to clear a Zig without any high level spells (levels above Haste=6). With Nemelex you will pretty much have an answer for every situation. I would even dare to say that Zigs can be completed without any spells at all with Nemelex.

[XuaXua]

Naga Gladiator of Chei.

Pick the trident. Automatic reaching. Train Polearms.

[dk]

Naga Gladiator of Chei.

Pick the trident. Automatic reaching. Train Polearms.

Played one recently. First time I worshipped Chei. Did some stupid mistakes, but still made it to XL:16 on the first try. Go go Ticktocktomancer!

[XuaXua]

Naga Gladiator of Chei.

Pick the trident. Automatic reaching. Train Polearms.

Played one recently. First time I worshipped Chei. Did some stupid mistakes, but still made it to XL:16 on the first try. Go go Ticktocktomancer!

Slouch is evil.

[sir_laser]

cerebovssquire: Are you saying that shields are not very useful in the extended end game?

[Zicher]

cerebovssquire: Are you saying that shields are not very useful in the extended end game?

The problem with shields is that they are less effective when you are surrounded by many enemies, as the chance to block attacks decreases rapidly with each subsequent attacking enemy. Therefore, shields retain their usability as long as you manage to fight in a corridor or the like, but this is not always an option (a bad spawning point in Pan or Hell-effect-summoned creatures spring to mind).

[eeviac]

Shields are less effective in extended because they provide little to no defense against the biggest threats - hellfire, torment, mutation, smiting, firestorm, icestorm, death curses, etc.. Your best bets are always 'kill the target as quickly as possible' or 'ninja/run away'. Two handers are better at killing things than one handers with a shield.

[tasonir]

Naga Gladiator of Chei.

Pick the trident. Automatic reaching. Train Polearms.

Sometimes less is more. I saw this post and now I can't help but play them. My first Chei worshipper found an amulet of faith before a Chei altar, and my god is piety fast. I'm level 9 and have 5 stars. Chei thoroughly appreciates just about everything I'm not sure if that's from the amulet or from being a naga, though.

Some questions: Where should I be on the light/heavy armor spectrum, and is there any way to figure out what my movement speed is besides just "very slow"? Can I control-direction to force an attack into empty space if I want to advance time by 7 ticks instead of 14+(moving/resting)?

edit: should I consider shields or just go for the biggest polearm I can find? I'm thinking 2h, but hey If I use lighter armor I could probably cast condensation shield and various support anyways.

[XuaXua]

Naga Gladiator of Chei.

Pick the trident. Automatic reaching. Train Polearms.

Sometimes less is more. I saw this post and now I can't help but play them. My first Chei worshipper found an amulet of faith before a Chei altar, and my god is piety fast. I'm level 9 and have 5 stars. Chei thoroughly appreciates just about everything I'm not sure if that's from the amulet or from being a naga, though.

Some questions: Where should I be on the light/heavy armor spectrum, and is there any way to figure out what my movement speed is besides just "very slow"? Can I control-direction to force an attack into empty space if I want to advance time by 7 ticks instead of 14+(moving/resting)?

edit: should I consider shields or just go for the biggest polearm I can find? I'm thinking 2h, but hey If I use lighter armor I could probably cast condensation shield and various support anyways.

Depends on your spells. Lately I try to dump my shield because I want to do a heavy 2-handed weapon. Scythe is apparently just a completely crap weapon; I had a +4 Flaming Halberd which kicked Hydra ass. Also there is a mad axemen portal with electric halberds to look for. Train Invocations for slouch.

[crate]

If you turn on the show_game_turns option then the game will tell you how long your previous action took.

Resting is always 1.0 game turns. Attacking empty space is also 1.0 game turns.

[tasonir]

I think scythe is pretty clearly a 'style' weapon...it's pretty much just there for Sigmund. 14 damage vs 18 damage on a bardiche for the same speed? Bit lower accuracy, but still the bardiche is much better. Demon tridents are a good option if you have to have the shield, of course, but I think I'll be going bardiche.

I don't have any spell books yet, but even without spells it seems like you are pretty heavily pushed into light armor with the deformed body intrinsic. Anyways this is getting a bit overly specific for this thread, I'll probably toss up a CIP later. But thanks for the character idea

[crate]

Heavy armour is fine on nagas, you only lose a maximum of 7 AC (and that's assuming you have crystal plate), and you get that much AC naturally from being a naga. You still get the larger maximum enchantment and you get the same AC bonus from armour skill (actually more, since a barding is 4 base AC and boots are 1) as other races.

[XuaXua]

I think scythe is pretty clearly a 'style' weapon...it's pretty much just there for Sigmund.

That and the reaping branded unrandart. I miss my Centaurs with bows of reaping.

[snow]

I like High Elf Wizards of Sif Muna. You can easily get 9 strength and wear fire/ice/pearl dragon armor to have a 40+ AC firestormer.

Merfolk Berserkers are also good if you swap to TSO at some point. Aim for 27 Strength and wear GDA.