New player getting frustrated.


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:32

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 22:28

New player getting frustrated.

I'm not actually totally new. I played this game back in 2009, and have a vague recollection of doing better at it then. As in, I seem to remember visiting the alternate branches, mines/lair/pit/etc way more than I am now. In 2012 I'm just dying all the time in DL3-D7, and its rare for me to even find the orc mines. It's really frustrating being forced to skip monsters I can't handle 1-on-1 over and over and over, even with maximum planning/tactical manuevering, then finally feeling like I have to "kill something already", and getting two shot off full buffs/HP/MP. Maybe back in the 2009 I was playing just the easiest class combos, and not f!%$ing squishy casters.

This is my hero at the moment. He found 4 branded daggers on level 1, has a new spellbook, and I want to make some decent progress with this one for once.

From the other threads I gather I should be using the dagger of electrocution (or maybe the dagger of venom, if that IDs with better bonuses?) And it sounds like I should be focusing my skills, but where? I'm getting the sense that strategy of picking Air Elementalist to start for the book's tricks, then moving towards a more fighter-oriented path, is putting me into a crap-of-all-trades-master-of-none situation?

PS: I've read the wiki about gift timeouts and what gods gift what, but I don't actually understand how the actual process works. Do gifts randomly "just happen" while walking about with sufficient piety levels, or Is it triggered by some action (like nethack's sacrifices at altars)?

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.10-b1-117-g5346395 character file.

Dan the Ducker (Kobold Air Elementalist)            Turns: 2516, Time: 00:11:00

HP  28/28        AC  2     Str  8      XL: 5   Next:  0%
MP   7/9         EV 16     Int 14      God:
Gold 143         SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  3 memorised,  2 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .    g - dagger (speed)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  a - +0 robe
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .    (no shield)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    (no helmet)
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : .    (no cloak)
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    (no gloves)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    (no boots)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    (no amulet)
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    (no ring)
Saprovore : + + .   Ctrl.Flight: .    (no ring)

@: slightly resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: disease resistance, carnivore 3, saprovore 2
a: no special abilities

You are on level 2 of the Dungeon.
You are full.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 2 of its levels.

You have collected 123 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - an uncursed dagger of electrocution (quivered)
 g - an uncursed dagger of speed (weapon)
 k - an uncursed dwarven dagger of holy wrath
 n - an uncursed dagger of venom
Missiles
 i - 8 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 a - a +0 robe (worn)
Magical devices
 j - a gold wand
Comestibles
 c - a meat ration
Scrolls
 e - a scroll labeled PIELODU FILL
 f - a scroll labeled GUOTADGH UZIGH
 o - a scroll labeled KUOTRU TAATAO
 r - 2 scrolls labeled ANESHR OSOPP
Potions
 h - a silvery potion
 l - 3 metallic purple potions
 t - 2 green potions
Books
 b - a book of Air   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Shock                             Conjuration/Air              1
   *Swiftness                         Charms/Air                   2
   Repel Missiles                     Charms/Air                   2
   Flight                             Charms/Air                   3
   Static Discharge                   Conjuration/Air              3
   Lightning Bolt                     Conjuration/Air              5
 m - a book of Dreams   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Ensorcelled Hibernation           Hexes/Ice                    2
   Flight                             Charms/Air                   3
   Alistair's Intoxication            Transmutation/Poison         4
   Phase Shift                        Translocation                5
   Shadow Creatures                   Summoning                    5


   Skills:
 + Level 0.3 Fighting
 + Level 0.7 Short Blades
 + Level 4.3 Dodging
 + Level 3.6 Stealth
 + Level 2.5 Stabbing
 + Level 1.6 Spellcasting
 + Level 1.3 Conjurations
 + Level 0.5 Hexes
 + Level 0.2 Ice Magic
 + Level 4.0 Air Magic

You have 2 spell levels left.
Last edited by ddubois on Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 23:26, edited 1 time in total.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 461

Joined: Monday, 13th June 2011, 00:21

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 22:42

Re: New player getting frustrated.

ddubois wrote:I'm not actually totally new. I played this game back in 2009, and have a vague recollection of doing better at it then. As in, I seem to remember visiting the alternate branches, mines/lair/pit/etc way more than I am now. In 2012 I'm just dying all the time in DL3-D7, and its rare for me to even find the orc mines. It's really frustrating being forced to skip monsters I can't handle 1-on-1 over and over and over, even with maximum planning/tactical manuevering, then finally feeling like I have to "kill something already", and getting two shot off full buffs/HP/MP. Maybe back in the 2009 I was playing just the easiest class combos, and not f!%$ing squishy casters.

Air Elementalist might not be the best caster for you, then - especially if you're a Kobold. You might try Wizard instead, as they have Blink and Mephitic Cloud in their starter book. The former will help you escape bad situations, while the latter will make it easier to kill a LOT of things in the early dungeon. Stabbing confused monsters will go well with a Kobold's aptitudes, especially if you use a dagger or other short blade. (And while we're on the subject, that dagger of electrocution is far and away your best bet.) Once you're past the early game, you should focus on being a better caster. If you're still sold on air magic, the cloud family of spells are a good thing to move on to.

PS: I've read the wiki about gift timeouts and what gods gift what, but I don't actually understand how the actual process works. Do gifts randomly "just happen" while walking about with sufficient piety levels, or Is it triggered by some action (like nethack's sacrifices at altars)?

The overwhelming majority of gifts (if you have a god that gives them) start happening after you hit a certain piety level. The god will give you gifts randomly as you go through the game, but doing things that grant piety will shorten the time between gifts. There are a few exceptions that you DO have to go to an altar for (Lugonu's distortion weapon, Kiku's choice of the Necronomicon or pain weapon, the Shining One's holy weapon), but those are rare and only happen at 6-star piety.
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Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 23:03

Re: New player getting frustrated.

First of all, please put your character log in a code tag so that it doesn't take so much space.

Now, about the character;

Starting out as AE with a Kobold and picking up a short blade sounds like a plan, but Kobolds don't have great HP growth and starting out as a caster makes them even more squishy.

What I would recommend, If you don't mind playing a non-caster melee focused character and like the Kobolds, try a Kobold Berserker (either switch to short blades or stick with maces and flails). They also have good throwing skill for blowguns + needles if you like that too. Kobolds can stuff themselves silly with meat so hunger is never an issue for them while there's edible corpses around. That's why they make great berserkers. Trog doesn't allow spellcasting though so don't plan to join him and level spells associated skills, he will get pissed.

Another really powerful melee character is the Minotaur Berserker or anything Minotaur in the Warrior/Zealot tabs (except Chaos Knight). Also Hill Orcs have a high tolerance to rotten meat so they have a better food clock than Minotaur Berserkers, which also makes them good candidates.

There's a myriad of options for which combo to begin with and you can always try them all.

Skill-wise I see you currently have all skills enabled. I'm guessing you are playing on AUTO mode for skill management? You'll want to go to the skill screen and switch to manual so that you can define what skills to raise. Biggest priority is for your weapon to hit minimum delay when you're playing a melee character. Then build your defences/fighting skill up.

Attack delay of each weapon is that number next to base damage, for example a dagger has a base attack delay of 100, which I'm pretty much sure means it takes a single turn to perform one attack with it. However -and this applies to all weapons- by raising you associated weapon skill, you reduce this attack delay by 10% for every 2 skill levels. That means with a short blades skill of 2 your dagger will have a delay of 90, at 4 it will go to 80 etc. There's a limit to that, though, called minimum delay. Roughly, you can find the minimum delay of every weapon by dividing the base delay by 2 then rounding the result down. If the number is still greater than 70, then the weapon doesn't reach minimum delay unless you get enough skill levels for it to go to 70% exactly. For example, a Short sword requires a short blades skill of 12 to reach minimum delay, because 110/2 <=> 55, which rounded down is 50, which means you need 6 x 2 skill levels in short blades to reach minimum delay with the weapon. A sabre is special cased, even though it has a delay of 120, it still goes down to 50 instead of 60, so it takes 14 skill in short blades to reach min delay.On the other hand, an executioner's axe, the top tier two handed axe in the game, has a delay of 200/2 = 100 which is more than 70, so to reach 70, you need 26 skill (which is just one skill level away from the cap anyway) in axes, thus making it a pretty expensive weapon to use, skill wise.

Note that while there's nothing bad with leveling your weapon skill past the minimum delay level (you gain extra accuracy and some minor damage increases), you should focus on buffing up other areas of your character before coming back to it, since spending your exp on other tricks for surviving will have a much bigger impact on your character.

For this character, it's nice that you have a dagger of elec and venom to choose from. I'd stick with the elec one since it pretty much destroys everything in early depths. Remember that flying/levitating creatures don't get hit by elec weapons, so a dagger of elec loses its shine against them due to its crappy base damage. Also, extra tip; If you find a hydra, it's a good idea to use a sabre/short sword of flaming, since daggers don't cut heads. Do mind that a non-flaming cutting weapon will only increase the heads of a hydra so take care.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:32

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 23:54

Re: New player getting frustrated.

I picked Air Elementalist because I like doing bizap and lining-'em-up tricks. Micromanaging tricks like that to maximize my MP's effectiveness is fun for me, I guess because it makes me feel clever. Perhaps it's time to give up on AirElem and try other classes.

TehDruid wrote:Kobolds can stuff themselves silly with meat so hunger is never an issue for them while there's edible corpses around. That's why they make great berserkers.

By the same rationale, I figured kobold caster would give me the ability to cast all I want without having to worry about spell hunger. (But this plan sort of conflicts with the situation where I find a good short blade, and want to start using it instead of spamming some conjuration spell.)

Skill-wise I see you currently have all skills enabled. I'm guessing you are playing on AUTO mode for skill management? You'll want to go to the skill screen and switch to manual so that you can define what skills to raise. Biggest priority is for your weapon to hit minimum delay when you're playing a melee character. Then build your defences/fighting skill up.

I'd turned off some skills that were at level 0 still, like unarmed, traps, etc., but yea, the thrust of my post was asking about what my plan should be with regards to skills. As in, am I effectively obligated to pick one group out of: a) fighting/shortblade, b) stealth/stabbing, or c) spellcasting/conj/air/etc., and turn off everything else?

Also, extra tip; If you find a hydra, it's a good idea to use a sabre/short sword of flaming, since daggers don't cut heads. Do mind that a non-flaming cutting weapon will only increase the heads of a hydra so take care.

Worrying about what to do if I ever see a hydra is a bit beyond my concerns at the moment. I can't seem to stop dying to uniques/orc wizards/ice beasts/etc. currently. This character I posted above just now got chased down (I bailed after one melee round, when he woke up before I could stab and took half my health in one hit with a weapon) on level 6 by a centaur who shot me to death while I had Swift/Repel up. :( In retrospect maybe trying to use Ensorcelled Hibernation to make my escape was a higher percentage play, but that could have easily been resisted/miscast, so I don't know.

I hate to whine, because I know that's that fastest way to ostracize oneself from a fan community, but JFC, this game just seems too hard. I consider myself a hardcore gamer, but for me, Crawl is really toeing the line between presenting an interesting challenge and sheer rage-tilt-inducing frustration.
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Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 00:19

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Hahaha man don't worry I've been playing for about 2 years I think... (since 0.6) and at the begining I was STRUGGLING to reach D:10. Now I constantly clear everything up to level XL:15 with ease on most characters (that contains L:8 and Orc:4). However I've only won two times, a 3-rune and a 10-rune so far so I'm not considering myself very successful. Mostly cause I don't play to win, so I don't really "do my homework" when it comes to this game.

General advice;

Identify your scrolls soon, but not on D:1. Wait for them to pile up for a while and when you see stacks of 5 or 6 scrolls in your inventory know that it's most probably either identify or remove curse, or detect curse. On ocassion they can also be Teleportation scrolls. Preferably wear an accessory, wield an uncursed weapon and make sure you wear some armour so you don't miss the Curse foo scrolls. Scroll of amnesia doesn't auto-identify if you don't have a spell memorized so if you're wielding a weapon and wearing jewellery and armour it's most probably safe to assume that's the scroll of amnesia if it doesn't auto-identify.
Identify your potions by either using an identification scroll on them (the right way) or quaff-ID them like I do (the wrong way :P ). Quaff-ID means you have the potential of dying quite easily through a potion of decay or poison early on if you don't have the potion of curing ID'ed. Same as with scrolls, large stacks most probably mean they're curing. In general waiting till you have.
ID wands by zapping them on weak, harmless monsters first, you don't want to haste that ogre. Preferably while they're standing in front of a wall so if the wand is of digging it makes a tunnel and you ID it, otherwise it won't ID. Also the wand of cure wounds doesn't ID if the monster is not damaged so it's optimal to hurt them a little before trying a wand on them. ;)

It's better if you wait till you have a respectable amount of both scrolls and potions plus some accessory (and wielding a weapon if you play unarmed) to have on you to ID them optimally.

P.S: To be honest I never do any of the above. :lol:
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Slime Squisher

Posts: 369

Joined: Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 18:22

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 00:54

Re: New player getting frustrated.

If you wanna play a fun Kobold, I would suggest trying a stalker. They are tons of fun and seem to fit the hybrid play style you are looking for. They start with a +2+2 dagger, and get the ability to poison and confuse enemies pretty quickly. They learn necromancy fairly quick from casting the level 1 spell and it goes well with following Kiku and getting your necromancy up for the inevitable undead you will soon face. Just the stalker kit usually gets me to lair at least. Hell sometimes you get lucky and run in to a hive lair and one or two poisoned evaporate leads to 8 or so more poisons. The only sub par skill they have leveling is transmutations, and that starts at 2 and doesn't need to get that high anyways because the most immediately useful spells are only level 1 and 2. Stabbing, stealth are above average and spellcasting is average, so nothing will level slow or anything, Anyways, just some thoughts.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 172

Joined: Thursday, 1st September 2011, 00:21

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 01:34

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Try some different combos. Troll Berserker is very easy to get through the early game. Kobold Berserker will take you farther once you get your feet under you. Once you've got a bit of survival skills, Hill Orc Priest of Beogh is very easy once you get going (well, up to a point, but for quite a while).

If you spend some time on easier combos you'll have some fun (which is the point after all) and you'll live long enough to start developing some strategy which you can apply to, say, spellcasters. Probably some bad habits too, but you can unlearn those.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 129

Joined: Saturday, 27th August 2011, 22:00

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 20:44

Re: New player getting frustrated.

it is not easy or quick to hybrid off of a pure magic background. if you aren't a pro and choose a magic background you should probably 90% focus on casting and only melee the softest and weakest critters.

if you want some casting and hybridization from the start, Skalds are really strong and they're fun imo.. just focus 90% on your melee skills and while getting your self-buffs up to a decent % success cast
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Barkeep

Posts: 4434

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 20:58

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Mattchew wrote:Try some different combos. Troll Berserker is very easy to get through the early game.


Troll Hunter (or Monk) of Okawaru is also a good choice; your early-game damage is still fantastic, Heroism makes it even more so, and you'll actually get useful armour gifts.

Monk is nice for the super-quick piety boost. Hunter is nice for the stack of Large Rocks, which are like a Wand of Kill Grinder.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:32

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 06:27

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Hello again. I've been playing Spriggan Wizards since I cane across a nice youtube series featuring them, and been doing much better with them. Their kiting ability feels pretty cheesy/overpowered, but it's more fun than dying all the time.

I think I have a nice selection of gear, but I'm disappointed with my ability to handle named uniques. So many times I've come across one, retreated to the prior level, grabbed my wands, made 9 pets, regened up, cast more pets, cast all my buffs, subliminated some corpses, went down, had a big fight.... and ran back to the prior level at half life and no mana to farm more corpses and repeat the process... or, worse, died to him. (BTW, which classes/heroes are best at "manning up" to take out OODs/uniques?)

Regarding skills: Am I running out of time? What I mean is, once I hit level 27, do all skill increases turn off? If so, what do I need to work on before then? I'm not sure on the math with regards to being able to minimize my spell failures while still using my sword of protection and my buckler of reflection. (Or am I supposed to be using a staff instead of those? Which one?)

Also, I don't know how to properly evaluate my items. I've got a giant stash of wands/books/potions/scrolls, and I obviously can't show you all of it, so for this post I've picked up everything I thought might be interesting for the purposes of this char dump so that you guys could tell me what to wear and what to ?acquire. (It would be nice if I could wear ten rings, and four necklaces like a rap star, then I wouldn't have to worry about figuring out the best combo, but c'est la vie.) Mostly I'm just going with the ="Epoherae" and swapping the others around based on what's currently shooting at me.

I haven't seen any acid resistance this game, and the only electricity resistance I see in Ctrl-F is some dubious cursed artifacts. I could buy an amulet of resist mutation, but I don't know why I'd want to?

Thanks for any advice you might have as I go to the next stage. I'm starting the Tomb now FYI (and wishing I had resist Rot).

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.10-b1-117-g5346395 character file.

Dan the Sorcerer (Spriggan Wizard)                Turns: 139424, Time: 16:31:38

HP 102/102 (107) AC  9     Str 12      XL: 24   Next: 28%
MP  48/48        EV 25     Int 33      God: Vehumet [******]
Gold 2495        SH 14     Dex 17      Spells: 18 memorised,  8 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +    (no weapon)
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : . .  B - +2 robe {rC+ rF+}
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : .    S - +3 elf buckler {rflct}
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    b - +2 wizard hat
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : +    U - +2 cloak {darkness}
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    (gloves unavailable)
Sust.Abil.: + .     Stasis     : .    (boots unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    j - amulet of clarity
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    u - ring "Epoherae" {SustAb Str+3 Dex+2 Int+4}
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    i - ring of the Invisible Hand {rN+ Str+2 Int+

@: burdened, very quick, extraordinarily resistant to hostile enchantments,
fairly stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow metabolism 3, Str
+1, Int +1
a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility
}: 2/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled

You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are encumbered.
You are very full.

You have visited 11 branches of the dungeon, and seen 61 of its levels.
You have visited 2 bazaars.

You have collected 6186 gold pieces.
You have spent 3711 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 w - a +4,+4 sabre of protection
 F - the crossbow "Hellfire" {flame, rF++ rC- MR}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   It turns projectiles fired from it into bolts of flame.
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
Armour
 b - a +2 wizard hat (worn)
 B - a +2 robe of resistance (worn)
 S - a +3 elven buckler of reflection (worn)
 U - a +2 cloak of darkness (worn)
Magical devices
 h - a wand of teleportation (8)
 y - a wand of fireball (10)
 I - a wand of lightning (9)
 J - a wand of polymorph other (11)
Scrolls
 x - 2 scrolls of blinking
 A - 2 scrolls of silence
 E - a scroll of torment
Jewellery
 a - an uncursed ring of life protection
 d - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 g - an uncursed amulet of stasis
 i - the ring of the Invisible Hand (left hand) {rN+ Str+2 Int+1}
   (You bought it in a shop in a bazaar)   
   
   [ring of life protection]
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It affects your intelligence (+1).
 j - an amulet of clarity (around neck)
 u - the ring "Epoherae" (right hand) {SustAb Str+3 Dex+2 Int+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 17 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of sustain abilities]
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
 C - an uncursed ring of ice
 K - the ring "Itsiurao" {+Lev SInv}
   (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of see invisible]
   
   It lets you levitate.
 L - a +4 ring of evasion
 M - an uncursed ring of magical power
 N - a +4 ring of protection
 O - the amulet of Evued {Cons +Inv Dam+4 SInv}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [amulet of conservation]
   
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 P - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
Potions
 e - 2 potions of paralysis
 l - a potion of cure mutation
 m - a potion of magic
 n - 2 potions of heal wounds
 o - 2 potions of strong poison
 q - 7 potions of mutation
 r - 11 potions of curing
 z - 4 potions of decay
 H - a potion of degeneration
Books
 p - a tome of Destruction
Magical staves
 c - a staff of channeling
 f - a rod of striking
   (You took it off a merfolk impaler on level 5 of the Shoals)
 k - a staff of power
 D - a staff of cold
 X - a staff of summoning

   Skills:
 + Level 5.0 Fighting
 - Level 9.1 Short Blades
 - Level 10.0 Dodging
 - Level 4.3 Stealth
 - Level 7.1 Traps & Doors
 - Level 24.8 Spellcasting
 - Level 19.3 Conjurations
 - Level 0.7 Charms
 - Level 0.7 Summonings
 - Level 6.0 Necromancy
 - Level 1.5 Translocations
 - Level 17.5 Ice Magic

You have 8 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        0%          1    None
b - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       ########..   1%          4    None
c - Conjure Flame         Fire/Conj      ########.    1%          3    None
d - Freezing Cloud        Ice/Air/Conj   ########..   1%          6    None
e - Evaporate             Fire/Trmt      ######.      1%          2    None
f - Fulsome Distillation  Trmt/Necr      N/A          1%          1    None
h - Ice Storm             Ice/Conj       #########.   9%          9    Honeycomb
i - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           #########    0%          4    None
j - Abjuration            Summ           ######....   1%          3    None
l - Recall                Tloc/Summ      N/A          1%          3    None
m - Mephitic Cloud        Pois/Air/Conj  #######..    1%          3    None
n - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   1%          3    None
o - Bolt of Cold          Ice/Conj       #########.   1%          6    None
r - Repel Missiles        Air/Chrm       ######....   1%          2    None
s - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           #######...   1%          2    None
u - Control Undead        Necr           #######...   1%          4    None
y - Agony                 Necr           #######..    1%          5    None
z - Ozocubu's Armour      Ice/Chrm       ########..   1%          3    None

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (20/27)            Temple (1/1) D:5             Orc (4/4) D:6
    Elf (5/5) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:11         Shoals (5/5) Lair:4
  Slime (0/6) Lair:7        Snake (5/5) Lair:6        Vault (8/8) D:17
  Blade (1/1) Vault:5       Crypt (3/5) Vault:3        Tomb (1/3) Crypt:2

You are tiny and cannot use many weapons and most armour.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are a herbivore.
You cover ground extremely quickly.
You need consume almost no food.
Your mind is acute (Int +1).
Your muscles are strong (Str +1).
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 06:43

Re: New player getting frustrated.

absolutely buy resist mutation and carry it, when you run into mutators they can ruin your character very quickly, for less experienced players.

Conjurors (after a while) , Berserkers, and followers of the Shining one are pretty good at handling occasional tough enemies (he looks tough, better bring 3 Angels).

Tomb is seriously dangerous - you may be able to handle it and rewards are nice, but I'd want to have cleared the realm of Zot first in case things go bad, so you can still win. Crypt ought to be a better choice first, and Slime and Vaults.

You don't run out of time at level 27, but eventually you have trouble finding safe places to get experience.
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1249

Joined: Sunday, 18th September 2011, 02:11

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 06:44

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Stop. Do not enter tomb. It will grab you, kill you, and impale your head on a spike as a warning to others. It is often the hardest area in the game, and an inexperienced xl24 guy has no business in it.

Skills keep going after xl27, so no worries there.

As for taking uniques down...probably mf/mi/ho zerkers are strongest/most straightforward for that. Summon a brother or two, zero, and pound them to a pulp.

I don't have time to address the rest; I'll leave that to someone else.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 06:53

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Blade's warning is more accurate than mine for Tomb.

on equipment: reflection isn't a very good shield, though great shields are rare. do you have one with fire or ice resistance?
you can use your saber for stabbings and a staff of cold or conjuration when casting spells.
wielding Hellfire and the ring of ice commonly might be a good idea.

to minimize spell failures, just keep training the spell skills and spellcasting, or use a ring/staff of wizardry.

wand is always a decent acquirement, I'd try to complete Crypt and maybe Vaults and then acquire armour if needed, wand if not.
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz

Spider Stomper

Posts: 218

Joined: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 09:57

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 06:57

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Ooops, I am much too slow, but nevermind:
My advice:
1. Do not enter Tomb right now. Seriously. Just don't go there. Why would you want to do that?
2. Pick up some translocations spells if you have them - blink, control tele, control blink
3. Go back and get the silver rune from Vaults 8.
4. Do not enter Tomb.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 153

Joined: Sunday, 11th March 2012, 16:16

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 20:13

Re: New player getting frustrated.

DO enter Tomb... it's a great LEARNING EXPERIENCE! :mrgreen:

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:32

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 20:56

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Ok, I just searched all the bucklers, and found an elven buckler of protection. You think that's better than reflection? Reflection in Nethack was pretty pimp.
Last edited by ddubois on Thursday, 5th April 2012, 20:57, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 20:57

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Yes. It's a lot more reliable and helpful.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:32

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 21:07

Re: New player getting frustrated.

I enchanted it to +3, but when I put it on, my AC only goes up by 3. I would have expected 6, 3 from the +3, 3 from the protection.

That said, could you "sell me" a bit on it? I'm a lot more scared of being nuked from afar. I don't get in melee ranged much.

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 4

Joined: Thursday, 5th April 2012, 21:59

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 22:19

Re: New player getting frustrated.

ddubois wrote:I enchanted it to +3, but when I put it on, my AC only goes up by 3. I would have expected 6, 3 from the +3, 3 from the protection.


Shields don't increase your AC as standard, no matter the enchantment level. They reduce incoming damage when you block a melee or ranged attack, with the reduction being based on the type of shield, enchantment of the shield, and your shield skill level. The AC increase you're seeing is from the "of Protection", which is a type of shield (along with reflection) that I don't think I've ever seen in almost a decade of playing Crawl and quite a few wins... what's up with that?

That said, could you "sell me" a bit on it? I'm a lot more scared of being nuked from afar. I don't get in melee ranged much.


I would say that 99% of the time, If you're not using a two-handed weapon you should be using a buckler, even on a caster. If you're a melee type and can afford the shield skill investment, get a bigger shield, especially if you're playing as a "large" race. You only really need a single level in shield skill to offset the casting penalty if you're wearing a robe. The heavier your armour, the more shield skill you'll need to reduce the penalties, I believe.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:32

Post Thursday, 5th April 2012, 23:51

Re: New player getting frustrated.

demolicious wrote:I would say that 99% of the time, If you're not using a two-handed weapon you should be using a buckler, even on a caster. If you're a melee type and can afford the shield skill investment, get a bigger shield, especially if you're playing as a "large" race. You only really need a single level in shield skill to offset the casting penalty if you're wearing a robe. The heavier your armour, the more shield skill you'll need to reduce the penalties, I believe.

You're describing the benefits of wearing a buckler over not wearing a buckler, and that's all well and good, but it doesn't convince me to use buckler of protection over buckler of reflection. Without knowing any of the formula involved, 3AC doesn't seem like a big deal compared to the possibility of bouncing a bolt of lightning.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:32

Post Friday, 6th April 2012, 01:07

Re: New player getting frustrated.

Yeah, I read in the big questions thread my spriggan should get shields to 9 to avoid all penalties.

Thanks for the info regarding reflections. I see now from the wording in the wiki that it doesn't increase my chance to prevent incoming damage (by way of reflecting), rather, it just gives me a chance to reflect what had already been prevented (by way of blocking). Quite a bit less good that I had imagined coming from Nethack.

Hmm, so how much better will my ice beasts, my ozocubu's armour, and my freeing clouds be if I use staff of cold instead of sabre of protection + buckler of protection? Doesn't look like ozocubu's armor +AC value changes at all.

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 4

Joined: Thursday, 5th April 2012, 21:59

Post Friday, 6th April 2012, 01:11

Re: New player getting frustrated.

No. They either prevent it entirely (You block the foo's attack) or do nothing.


Arr, I worded that badly. I meant that the chance is based on your SH. Shields do "reduce incoming damage" (because you block the attack), but now that I read it again it sounds like I meant they block a percentage of the damage or something. They clearly don't, as you can see every time you block an attack.

No. It takes 5 Shields skill to eliminate all penalties from a buckler on a normal size species.


Hmm, I was wrong here then, sorry. I could've sworn I saw a commit message that described a change to the shield/armour system along these lines, but obviously I misread it. I'll go dig through the source before posting numbers next time.

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