The Tavern

danr wrote:Minor update - ver. 1.3.2.

I fixed an error I might have created in the last version with the select box for weapon brands.

I added support for "Heroism". If someone tells me how finesse works, I can do that too.

I'll probably do a toggle for trunk / 0.7 for Haste - I believe in trunk haste is only 1.5x speed instead of the 2x speed it is in 0.7, correct?

Correct. Also, Finesse is like 0.7 haste (x2) but only for attack speed, not movement speed.

Thanks, that's easy to do.

And Berserk in trunk is also 1.5x haste, correct?

And what happens if you berserk while also being finessed? Or can you?

One more thing: the attack speed article says this, and I think maybe I got it wrong:

If you are using a hand and a half weapon, like a double sword, with one hand, you get a decrease of attack delay by one. However, this is only the case if your skill adjusted delay is larger than ten. If you have enough weapon skill to have a delay ten or less, it doesn't have any effect.

At first I took this to mean a bonus if you are using the weapon without a shield, but this sounds like the bonus is if using it with one hand, i.e. the other hand is using a shield. Is there a slight speed boost if using one-handed to offset the damage boost if using two-handed?

I couldn't find this in the source unfortunately, perhaps it doesn't even apply anymore?

New version, 1.4:

- Added finesse and heroism
- a toggle for 0.7 / trunk that affects weapon minimum delay and haste / berserk speed boost

I found an error in the spreadsheet.

In row 85 where the Weapon Type Minimum Delay is computed, you should be rounding down from half, instead of rounding up (demon whips with 11 base delay get 5 delay at the speed cap, for example). Replacing the INT with CEILING should work

edit:

danr wrote:And Berserk in trunk is also 1.5x haste, correct?

I think the berserk speedup is still 2x

Thanks. Row 85 can also be fixed more simply by changing it from =B64-INT(B64/2) to just =INT(B64/2). I was actually doing that extra step to do what I guess CEILING would have done in the first place.

I've also noticed it wasn't letting spriggans wield scimitars, so I fixed that.

I'll upload a new version when I get confirmation on the berserk effect.

danr wrote:I'll upload a new version when I get confirmation on the berserk effect.

Confirmation granted - berserking speed was not affected by the recent Haste nerf, unless the learndb is totally wrong about this (see http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#haste).

danr wrote:This spreadsheet is open-source - if anyone wants to improve it or update it for trunk, they are free to.

But if it's not on Google Docs, they probably won't. :) That's why I suggest that when you put out the next version, you delete it off the forum and release it on Google Docs only. Users can click File > Download on the Google Docs menu bar to download it.

Include a note inside the spreadsheet that says that anyone who wants to can contribute: all they have to do is post on this thread agreeing that they release their edits under a dual license of the Crawl General Public License and the GPL version 2 or higher.

You'd be surprised. Maybe people will add lots more features. It happened to me once with an open-source project I maintained. I thought it was a niche project, but I got a surprising number of contributions. I'm no longer involved with it anymore: someone else has taken over maintainership.

New version, 1.4.1:

- Fixes the rounding error in weapon delay mentioned above
- Berserk for 0.8 now gives 2x speed again
- Fixed a validation problem with weapon brands
- Removed 0.7.1 from the file name as it now handled both stable and trunk releases.

As for Google Docs - I can't access that, it's blocked by my corporate network. If someone else wants to put it there that's fine with me.

I have thought of other things to add that I don't have time for but could be added if this becomes a community project:
- Unarmed combat damage: add the various forms as "weapons"
- UC: auxiliary attacks: would have to add in mutations like horns etc.
- Wizard staff damage: would have to add evocations skill, magic school skills
- display damages for susceptible / resistant monsters for elemental damage.
- add in at least the damage elements of the distortion and draining brands

Danr: I should have told you that earlier, but you can give a name to a cell in excel. You should really look it up. It makes reading and writing formulas much easier. Also, moving cells, adding/removing lines or columns is a breeze if you use it. If you (or anyone else) could change the spreadsheet to use named range instead of absolute cell references, it would make further editing of the spreadsheet much easier.

Thanks, that sounds useful, I will look into it.

Here is the spreadsheet on google docs. I know this thread is really old but I felt like it might help to have this excellent piece of work more widely available.

The thread is old but it is also a sticky. I notice that Google Docs lacks the data validation and field protection features. Hm.

danr wrote:I couldn't find this in the source unfortunately, perhaps it doesn't even apply anymore?

It is very possible that the attack speed article is out of date. I know that because I am the dude who originally wrote it, and posted it on the SA forums. When I wrote it was looking at the pre-0.7 trunk code, which was the most recent then. There was a lot of misinformation on learndb about attack speed at the time (it said that haste rounded down, for instance), and I was trying to clear things up.

I didn't actually post anything on the wiki myself. It looks like somebody took my post from SA and copied it there, which I am fine with. More people are likely to see it on the wiki anyway.

I might look over the current trunk code and give the article an update if I find the time.

I've updated the Attack Speed article in the wiki to conform to the current 0.8 trunk. There weren't too many changes. Some of the hand and a half stuff no longer applies, the shield calculations are different, and the old haste values were obviously off. It should be accurate now.

New version, 1.4.3.

Fixed some more validation errors (not sure how those keep arising) and some other things with speed mostly.

I added +ACC and +DAM bonuses for each weapon as well, I did not realize until I found the Captain's Cutlass that weapons could have slaying bonuses. These work differently from the to hit and damage enchantments (they are better) so they have to be factored separately.

Oh yes - heroism now correctly boosts L0 skills to L5.

I got Captain's Cutlass and could not decide between it and a -2 +8 Quick Blade of fire with a ton of resistance brands.

Also had no idea Cutlass was a SHORT BLADE as there is really nothing to indicate that it is so.

In your spreadsheet, I am not sure the holy brand applies correctly against monsters. I think it is doing extra damage against non-undead. I could be wrong though.

The enemy thing is only used for AC / EV. Brand damage is calculated for every brand all the time. There is a separate total for just base damage that you can look at.

Fix C50, D50 and E50.
Fix is obvious when checking B50, which works.

Discovered when testing a +5,+6 Vorpal Quickblade against the Captain's Cutlass (+6,+7 Short Sword of Speed +3 Damage).

Thanks.

IIRC the Cutlass is a sabre.

danr wrote:Thanks.

IIRC the Cutlass is a sabre.

Thanks.

Apparently
the +6,+7 Sabre of Speed with +3 Damage (Captain's Cutlass) gives 25.9 damage/turn.
the +6, +5 Vorpal Quick Blade gives 27 damage/turn.

Guess I gotta go with my Quick Blade unless fighting jellies.

Also, I'm playing trunk with nerf'd Speed brand and if I'm reading this correctly, you're not compensating for that yet, correct? Better off with the Quick Blade then.

XuaXua wrote:
danr wrote:Thanks.

IIRC the Cutlass is a sabre.

Thanks.

Apparently
the +6,+7 Sabre of Speed with +3 Damage (Captain's Cutlass) gives 25.9 damage/turn.
the +6, +5 Vorpal Quick Blade gives 27 damage/turn.

Guess I gotta go with my Quick Blade unless fighting jellies.

Also, I'm playing trunk with nerf'd Speed brand and if I'm reading this correctly, you're not compensating for that yet, correct? Better off with the Quick Blade then.

Actually, unless things have changed in trunk, +5 items are immune to corrosion, so that quick blade will be just fine.

So, who (not me) is going to expand this spreadsheet to include unarmed combat and missiles? (This request is not @danr, who's done so much already. And it's not at me, who is so lazy.)

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Talk:Missile
This is a great intro but I'd love to compare missiles side-by-side.

Megabass wrote:
XuaXua wrote:
danr wrote:Thanks.

IIRC the Cutlass is a sabre.

Thanks.

Apparently
the +6,+7 Sabre of Speed with +3 Damage (Captain's Cutlass) gives 25.9 damage/turn.
the +6, +5 Vorpal Quick Blade gives 27 damage/turn.

Guess I gotta go with my Quick Blade unless fighting jellies.

Also, I'm playing trunk with nerf'd Speed brand and if I'm reading this correctly, you're not compensating for that yet, correct? Better off with the Quick Blade then.

Actually, unless things have changed in trunk, +5 items are immune to corrosion, so that quick blade will be just fine.

Thanks, but it doesn't help that I just died.

Thanks for the sheet! I was wondering if there were mummies available from the drop down species menu.

smock wrote:So, who (not me) is going to expand this spreadsheet to include unarmed combat and missiles? (This request is not @danr, who's done so much already. And it's not at me, who is so lazy.)

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Talk:Missile
This is a great intro but I'd love to compare missiles side-by-side.

I tried to turn this thread on Bows into a thread on Ranged Weaponry in general.

smacaroni wrote:Thanks for the sheet! I was wondering if there were mummies available from the drop down species menu.

They should be, I'll fix it if they're not. However, it doesn't matter, you can just pick human, as they are the same size and don't get any racial bonuses either.

New version, 1.4.4:
- Mummies added to species selection, not sure why they were missing.
- Weapon slaying bonuses formula error corrected.

XuaXua wrote:
danr wrote:Thanks.

IIRC the Cutlass is a sabre.

Thanks.

Apparently
the +6,+7 Sabre of Speed with +3 Damage (Captain's Cutlass) gives 25.9 damage/turn.
the +6, +5 Vorpal Quick Blade gives 27 damage/turn.

Guess I gotta go with my Quick Blade unless fighting jellies.

Also, I'm playing trunk with nerf'd Speed brand and if I'm reading this correctly, you're not compensating for that yet, correct? Better off with the Quick Blade then.

I can't believe this. Sabre of speed with 3 slaying - 3 delay - 10 base damage
Vorpal quickblade - 3 delay - 5 base damage (x1.125)

certain the captain's cutlass is better.

Are you sure?

(not counting nerfed speed)

casmith789 wrote:
XuaXua wrote:
danr wrote:Thanks.

IIRC the Cutlass is a sabre.

Thanks.

Apparently
the +6,+7 Sabre of Speed with +3 Damage (Captain's Cutlass) gives 25.9 damage/turn.
the +6, +5 Vorpal Quick Blade gives 27 damage/turn.

Guess I gotta go with my Quick Blade unless fighting jellies.

Also, I'm playing trunk with nerf'd Speed brand and if I'm reading this correctly, you're not compensating for that yet, correct? Better off with the Quick Blade then.

I can't believe this. Sabre of speed with 3 slaying - 3 delay - 10 base damage
Vorpal quickblade - 3 delay - 5 base damage (x1.125)

certain the captain's cutlass is better.

Are you sure?

(not counting nerfed speed)

Could depend on the monster he's comparing it with? AC would matter for this, no?

Yes, I think weapons with higher base damage will compare more favourably when higher monster AC is involved.

I am seeing a problem with Executioner's Axe not giving me squat in 1.4.3. Was this fixed in 1.4.4?

I think there is some minor error in line "Fix weapon type delay if playing trunk", C86,D86,E86 - they all must have K1 in formula.

Can you throw in an orc target so we can see how slay orc affects said targets?

XuaXua wrote:Can you throw in an orc target so we can see how slay orc affects said targets?

I think the spreadsheet assumes the target is always vulnerable to the brand. The enemy field just sets target AC and EV to reasonable values. That's why it looks like an slay orc branded weapon does more damage than an unbranded weapon against a centaur, for example. You can see what the damage to non-susceptible enemies is in the "avg damage/turn" field, which is added to the "avg brand damage/turn" field to get "total avg damage/turn."

I don't know how you account for the difference between rC and rC++ enemies using the spreadsheet, other than manually calculating the reduction in brand damage.

(This is basically the same answer as the answer to your last question on this page of this thread.)

What should I pick if trying to check against a rod?

XuaXua wrote:What should I pick if trying to check against a rod?

a club.

Doesn't speed brand nerf the per-hit damage of a weapon? (Something like -10%?) I'm noticing that the "Avg damage / hit" of a weapon is not reduced when I give that weapon a speed brand.

Forged wrote:Doesn't speed brand nerf the per-hit damage of a weapon? (Something like -10%?) I'm noticing that the "Avg damage / hit" of a weapon is not reduced when I give that weapon a speed brand.

I've never heard of this. Is this new? Can you find this in the source code?

the original commit:
http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit ... 26fd/diffs

but that's changed to (fight.cc):

Code:: 1663 if (get_weapon_brand(*weapon) == SPWPN_SPEED) 1664 damage = div_rand_round(damage * 9, 10);

i think that's all there is to it, but i can't guarantee it.

Thanks for making this! It's been incredibly helpful to me.

It might be overly optimistic to hope for this, but I would find it really useful if it could also take into account the effect of stabbing. I'm trying to decide between two different sabres, one elec-branded and one speed-branded. On a monster with decent AC such as a dragon, the base damage of the sabre barely overcomes the monster's AC reduction, so the elec sabre has a much higher total damage per turn. However, I wonder if the speed-branded one might be better against a confused dragon (since, AFAIK armor reduction happens after the stabbing multipliers are applied).

I think I'm done with this project. Someone else with excel / spreadsheet skills can take it over (I had almost none when I started).

I know some people want a google doc, but I'd advise against that - I think it breaks some of the features of the spreadsheet. But whoever takes it over, it's your baby.

I guess now that 0.8 is released, 0.8 rules should be made default and if necessary use the toggle for any changes in trunk like the speed brand nerf.

danr wrote:I know some people want a google doc, but I'd advise against that - I think it breaks some of the features of the spreadsheet.

They can probably be rewritten. Seeing what Caethan has done with the Spell Lab, I'm confident it can be done. If someone feels like taking this over, here is a feature request: instead of selecting your skill level, the spreadsheet shows the results for all skill levels in a table. You'll need to split the main sheet into several. One to input stats (like in Spell Lab), one for speed, one for accuracy, one for damage per hit, and the last one (which should be the first since it's the most interesting one) for average damage per turn. This would be helpful for players (weapon A is better than B, but if I train my skills a bit more, then B will be better) and for devs to evaluate the result of any change done to the fighting code.

Other notes for whoever takes over, just on things that I know need to be updated:

- Make 0.8 rules default and start incorporating 0.9 rules
- things that I know are not in yet: Demon Whip damage was nerfed, and speed brand was nerfed.

Not sure this is needed, but I was having some fun with the weapon lab.
Moved some of the data into different worksheets, this made it a bit easier to add/edit items.

Also added a graph, currently it just shows the first two weapons, base adjusted damage, for weapon skills 1-27.

Let me know what you think.

The excel file was upgraded to 2007.

Jenchy wrote:Not sure this is needed, but I was having some fun with the weapon lab.
Moved some of the data into different worksheets, this made it a bit easier to add/edit items.

Also added a graph, currently it just shows the first two weapons, base adjusted damage, for weapon skills 1-27.

Let me know what you think.

The excel file was upgraded to 2007.

Nice! Although plotting the average damage per turn would be more useful than base damage, which is mostly linear anyway.

Related to this thread, I want to know if there's any actual modification in using weapons as a function of your skill Str / Dex. If I am not wrong, blades were recommended for dexterous and bludgeon-like for the strong; this is not written in the 0.9 and later anymore. Is just a suggestion based on the interaction of the weapon parameters or there's a specific bonus with Str/Dex ?

The Tavern

DCSS Weapon Comparison spreadsheet

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