Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)


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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 15:49

Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

The mummy wizard guide from the Wiki suggests to choose Kiku until you get the Nerconomicon, then possibly switch to Nemelx to farm books of wonder (experience cards!) and then switch to Sif Muna as the final god.

As far as I understand the Wiki, Nemelex calculates "weights" for items offered in several categories of items. The chance to get a certain deck type is relative to the weights for each category, and when he gives you a deck the weight for its category is reduced by 20%. Gaining piety by drawing cards can generate more decks without changing the weigths.

So much for the theory, but has anybody tried to optimize Nemelex' output in books of wonder? For example, would it be better to offer all potions and food first (which add weight for books of wonder) and then gradually offer other items divided evenly among the other categories? Or is it better to offer items evenly through all categories? Or not to offer any weapons as they only give you unwanted decks of destruction (that are dangerous to draw from and are not good for building piety)? A certain share of "wrong" decks is acceptable. Decks of escape and summoning are relatively safe and could be used to build piety without disturbing the weight for decks of wonder.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 17:20

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

The thing about nemelex is, while you can kinda game the system, you shouldn't (except possibly the very first deck, by saccing crappy wands and food). More decks = more piety = higher chance of legendary decks and more stackings of wonder/escape. Besides, decks of wonder really aren't that exceptional! Triple drawing once and stacking once costs an entire 14 piety and results on average about one experience card. Missing out on like 20 decks of summoning/destruction is not worth it.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 17:36

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Hm, with the entire loot from 15 dungeon levels + Hive + Orcish mines there should be plenty of decks. One point is that I want to abandon Nemelex as soon as the tons of items are gone and switch to Sif Muna when his wrath is over (there are still 50 large abominations in the temple to cover me). So maybe I'll keep some odd legendary decks of escape and summonig, but the character is going to spam haunts and nor rely on the decks anymore.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 18:49

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Get your piety to max first, then game the system. That way you're getting Ornate/Legendary decks of Wonders instead of Plain decks of Wonders. Also, don't draw from decks while under Nemelex punishment, they'll be weaker and the cards may get replaced by cards from the Deck of Punishments.

Personally, I wouldn't swap to Sif Muna for late game. By then you should have all the spells you need, so all she offers is Channeling and miscast protection. And if you have a Staff of Channeling... well, then she's mostly just redundant.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:44

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Take a look at the first (and second) post of nht in this bug report.
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1568
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:51

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

The mummy wizard guide from the wiki is stupid. Don't trust it; don't trust the wiki. Allow me to demonstrate:
"Being unable to drink from fountains is somewhat inconvenient in Elf:7, since you can't turn off the -cTele there.." right from that guide. Really...what
DO. NOT. FOLLOW. IT. Seriously do not.

Switching to Nemelex in between Kiku and Sif would be a ridiculous waste of time and effort. Don't bother. There is also little reason to go Kiku first; you can if you want, but Sif Muna is incredibly effective all through the game for a mummy who wants to use any summoning spells, since you have free infinite mp with channeling.

in conclusion, don't trust the wiki.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 20:57

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Well, it _was_ a waste of time and effort. :-/ I got _zero_ decks of wonder, one deck of escape and a dozen becks of destruction . Evocations is now at 13 - a real waste, but it allowed me to get two levelups from the book that was found on Nemelex' altar - what irony! Hopefully the experience from the two cards makes up for the points spent for evocation.

Further down in the dungeon there are shops with all the utility spells that I'm looking for except teleport self (lots of scrolls available) and freezing cloud. *shrug* So the bottom line is that I'll stay with Nemelex for a while longer and hope for one or two books of wonder in the lair and its side branches. (Found an amulet of faith in a shop.).

Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 22:16

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Agreed that the guide is terrible, but if you only sacrificed food and potions you should only get wonders. It sounds like you went through and hoovered up the dungeon, sacrificing everything.

If you hit ^, you can turn off sacrificing of categories that you don't want.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 22:19

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

If you take Nemelex for decks of wonder you do not understand how disgustingly overpowered his other decks are (or you're doing some gimmick like a Shuffle Troll). Legendary summoning will kill anything you run into that doesn't have abjuration, and legendary escape has Tomb cards plus other near-life-saving effects. Legendary destruction is not bad either, what with full-LOS-range crystal spears and multi-orb-of-destruction.

Decks of wonders are dramatically overvalued by most players imo. If you just want to win a game while worshipping Nemelex, get summoning/escape decks and enjoy your super easy win.

Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 23:17

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

TwilightPhoenix wrote:Personally, I wouldn't swap to Sif Muna for late game. By then you should have all the spells you need, so all she offers is Channeling and miscast protection. And if you have a Staff of Channeling... well, then she's mostly just redundant.


Doesn't staff of channeling suck majorly? On my recent NaCj I was frustrated with mana problems early on so I started training Evocations to use the staff of channeling I had found. Turns out, a crappy 1-3 mana per turn with a massive experience investment in Evocations wasn't worth it. By the midgame Vehumet's mana return became enough to fuel my entire 3-rune run.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 04:50

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

I used the Staff of Channeling quite a bit on a caster following Vehumet. There were plenty of moments where I needed the extra mana, even with Vehumet's mana on kills. Sure, I could get the same effect from Sif's channeling, from training Invocations doesn't let you use the Crystal Ball of Energy later, which is pretty awesome once your Evocations are up. And if it back fires and drain you? You have a Staff of Channeling.

You can also just use Sublimation of Blood, which Kiku guarantees and Sif will give sooner or later.

Sif's great early on, don't get me wrong. But once you have all the spells you need, the only big thing Sif offers is channeling (unless the RNG screwed you on Scrolls of Amnesia) and ammo for Trog's Book Burning if, for some reason, you decided to change to Trog (no idea why you'd want to do that, but I'm sure someone out there has tried it). And I can't see myself grinding Invocations purely to channel when I can use Evocations to channel as well plus do lots of other things.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 05:28

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

One of the things that makes Sif so powerful, especially for mummy summonspammers, is the combination of miscast protection and channeling. This allows you to, for example, keep a constant herd of 20 dragons around you with Summon Dragon at fair, something no other god can offer.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 08:10

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Couldn't you better achieve that with a Crystal Ball of Energy and using Vehumet's or Ash's skill boosts to put Summon Dragon above Fair? (Or, better yet, just train Summon Dragon to Excellent?)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 11:42

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

TwilightPhoenix wrote:Couldn't you better achieve that with a Crystal Ball of Energy and using Vehumet's or Ash's skill boosts to put Summon Dragon above Fair? (Or, better yet, just train Summon Dragon to Excellent?)

I hope you like int drain.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 13:29

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Special cases aside (i.e. mummies, or people who like boring things), superior channeling doesn't justify taking an entire god slot for me. CBOE 4EVA
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 16:21

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

crate wrote:I hope you like int drain.


It was merely a minor inconvenience compared to being able to launch an unlimited barrage of OoDs and Ice Storms no matter the situation.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 16:53

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Actually I'm not at all happy with that Kiku -> Nemelex -> Sif Muna path because it's _boooooring_. First in the Kiku phase it's just hit and run because necromancy on the low to medium levels seems to be good for nothing but summoning imps and undead, but then costs dearly in terms of experience that is already scarce for mummies (or rather: they need rediculous amounts to train their skills). Then I summon dozens of abominations in the temple (boooring) and sit out Kiku's wrath (double boring). Without a god I sweep the dungeon of items (triple boring), convert to Nemelex and waste lots of time offering the collected stacks. By then I'm so frustrated that the character is bound to die on the first dangerous encounter because I'm unconcentrated.

So, what else would _you_ suggest to do with a mummy wizard?
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 19:43

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Tutankham wrote:So, what else would _you_ suggest to do with a mummy wizard?


Either Sif or Nemelex are the safest, more reliable choices. Ashenzari if you're feeling creative.

Also, let this be a lesson in NEVER TRUST THE WIKI
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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 07:00

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Silly question, but why does evryone always say "never trust the wiki" yet no one seems to be updating it so you CAN trust it? If you sot something wrong with it, why not edit the page so it's accurate?

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 08:06

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Actually, not really sure the wiki was even wrong here. Decks DO work by weighting, and I'm pretty sure the wiki doesn't suggest trying to game the deck system.

Edit; That mummy wizard guide was written by a self-proclaimed newbie if you read the intro, though.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 09:18

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

greepish wrote:Actually, not really sure the wiki was even wrong here. Decks DO work by weighting, and I'm pretty sure the wiki doesn't suggest trying to game the deck system.

Suggesting to switch gods two times with Nemelex in the middle is silly. If you want good revenues from Nemelex you have to sacrifice a lot of valuable stuff, excluding weapons. And you won't have this stuff at that point in time because you find only cheap junk in the beginning. So you'll have to stick with him for a long time, and that makes switching to Sif Muna later rather pointless because you'll not get a lot of books anymore.

Stormphoenix wrote:Silly question, but why does evryone always say "never trust the wiki" yet no one seems to be updating it so you CAN trust it? If you sot something wrong with it, why not edit the page so it's accurate?

Nobody works on Wikis that require a login.

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 16:21

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

I felt like nemelex's other decks are kind of OP, and I thought this would be fun, so I took one character and tried to maximize my wonders by only sacrificing food. The problem is that your piety never grows appreciably, and you end up with a few low level wonders decks.. and that's it. Also, I think the weighting for decks uses the Gold Value of items so it super double sucks to sacrifice food because even a meat ration sells for like 40 gold or whatever.. therefore even if you went from piety 0-100 sacrificing food (like I did), and you're like level 18 by now, soon as you start sacrificing other stuff for piety you end up getting a bunch of those other decks.. they instantly outweigh your wonder score.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 17:42

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

It's food and potions. There are some fairly expensive ones.

Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 18:49

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

But you wan those things. Potions of cure mutation and such.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 20:08

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Not when following the mummy wizard guide.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 20:43

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

I actually am curious what the best strategy is with Nemelex. I am totally not the best player out there so take this with a grain of sald; I have won with Nemelex though. What I came up with is:

As soon as you convert, sac all the wonders-category stuff you can immediately, and mark any decks you get as {Wonders}. Then sac everything else. Early experience cards are really good so it is worth trying to get a few early on.

Always use the second ability to ID all your decks (except those initial wonders decks you got). Never draw blind unless you are prepared for mutations (Helix), random spell miscasts (Wild Magic), and stat shuffling (Shuffle). Or really desperate. If you have to, have a summon or a destroyable plant next to you, and a monster in LOS. There's also various other bad things that can happen, but those three have major potential to shaft you in a "you are now screwed over/dead" way, especially early on (eg, Wild Magic banishing you).

After IDing your decks, spam:
sub-Legendary dungeon decks
Summoning decks that are too weak for your current dungeon level (ie, if you're not going to get any use out of a regular Summoning deck, just use it up)
Destruction decks that are too weak for your current dungeon level (make sure there are monsters in range!)

Once you have enough piety from that, Triple Draw then Stack 5 your wonders decks, fishing for XP. If you're converting late in life to Nem, this is probably not worth it. Some characters might benefit from shuffle. Some characters might benefit from Focus. Conceivably, Legendary Helix might be worth it but I'm not really sure.
Stack 5 your Escape decks. I found they are really crappy if you draw randomly - if you're in deep trouble, a random escape effect is not what you want; a reliable and predictable one is. Tomb in particular is super win times and enormously abusable.
Wait until you have high piety/Evocations to spam Legendary Dungeons to get portals and bazaars; just make sure you have the money to actually use bazaars. You seem to get one portal, then only bazaars, so far as I can tell, but I am not 100% sure how this works. Not worth stacking*
Summoning decks are there for killing tough enemies; pretty much anything goes down to legendary summoning spam. Don't stack, just use them.
Destruction decks are there as somewhat unreliable but 0-mana sources of ranged damage. Don't use them on adjacent enemies unless you have good rF and rElec, or at all if Torment is going to get you killed. Be prepared for it to do nothing because you drew a card that can't hurt what you're fighting (pain on undead, flame on fire-immune people, etc). I found them most useful on spellcasters (more for the 0-mana), and on melee characters with no good ranged attack. Not worth stacking.

I'm curious if anyone can suggest things I should be doing differently here.

*The Water card, I have heard, is useful with flying and/or aquatic characters. I have, myself, not played enough with that to be able to say one way or the other - I'm curious what others think, though.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 21:54

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

My strategy with Nemelex is to find items and press p. Then press aa when you find anything remotely dangerous and use destruction/summoning. Press ae when you get decks of escape and put Tomb on top. Once you start getting legendary decks the biggest challenge is not getting bored.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 21st January 2012, 08:00

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Legendary, and even Ornate, Helix is very much worth it. You're also better off not trying to stack for Wonders early because an extra level will not save you and an early shuffle will kill you. Plus if you wait for your piety to be up, you'll get more, and better, Wonders decks later, along with more and better everything else. Really, the first thing any Nemelex worshipper should do is max out their piety before trying to game the decks.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 21st January 2012, 12:35

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Alright, next time I play Nemelex I will be hitting up the Ornate and higher Helix cards.

Just to clarify, I agree that blind drawing from Wonders decks is pretty much always an awful move and wasn't suggesting that. Do you recommend that it's not worth the piety to triple draw->stack 5 them once you've already built it up? Or not worth it except on Ornate+ ones (since then you can also benefit from Helix)?

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 21st January 2012, 13:52

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

When I start with Nem, I drop one item at a time for wonders and pray. Once I get that first deck, I inscribe 'wonder' on it and then wait until I can triple-draw and then stack it.
I sac everything except items for wonders (I keep them in my stash) just to quickly get piety up, which gives higher level decks. At full piety, I then start saccing everything. Although a single bad potion has almost 0% chance to go towards wonders (except mutation), a stack of 15+ of them does have a chance. I keep mutation potions since quaffing bunch of mutation potions, then using legendary helix is the way to go.
I do not use summons until I have evoc at 10+. It's important to reduce the chances of summoning unfriendlies.
There's much more, but you can learn it yourself :)

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 30th January 2012, 11:29

Re: Maximizing Nemelex output (books of wonder)

Animate Thread!

Having played around more with Nemelex, I've concluded that the following strategy seems to work best if you are picking up Nemelex first (rather than as a late or end game convert).

Turn off Wonders and Escape. Sacrifice everything. This means all your decks are Wonders, Destruction, and Summoning, all of which are (a) safe to draw-ID, provided you can live with an occasional hostile summon, AE poison, or Torment which you probably can (b) safe to spam at monsters. Blow through the decks on any hard monsters you find, don't worry about trying to conserve them until you hit 6 piety. Then turn Wonders and Escape on, sac everything else, and start peek-ID'ing decks.

This works better, because it prevents you from stalling early on because you got a few Wonders or Escape decks that are too dangerous to use and you don't have the piety to Stack.

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