MDFI zin for zot?

[plantaspoon]

I've got an MDFI in v0.9.0 that's diving toward zot. I originally planned to go TSO the whole game, but a round of 5 bad mutations and serious drought of cmut potions caused me to abandon TSO and take up zin. 10 D levels later I am mutation free, but I've got a god I know nothing about. Recite doesn't seem to do anything but take a lot of turns, I've yet to use vitalization or sanctuary, and I'm not sure of the power of the mutation resist. If it's close to 100% rmut at full peity it might be worth it since i could melee orbs of fire. I'll probably go back to TSO for the hp regen once zot is clear and i'm fighting nothing but demons. I'm asking someone with experience, do I switch back to TSO before zot or stick with zin?

[cerebovssquire]

TSO is not very useful before extended, especially in 0.9 where piety is painfully slow (well, he is of use in Crypt but Crypt is easy anway). Angels and Divine Shield are decent, but Cleansing Flame doesn't do much, Holy Wrath is plain bad before extended, and rN+++ prevents a little annoyance in Elf and V:8 but not much else.

On the other hand, Zin has a "lol I survive" button and an extremely useful ability (Imprison) for shutting down ranged attackers or polearm attackers, or to even flee from melee attackers using Blink and then Imprison. Even Vitalisation has some uses to cure bad tactical effects, in 0.9, or preventing them, in 0.10. You won't get mutated much before extended, except in Zot, but all in all it seems like a good idea.

Personally I would choose Okawaru, Trog, Elyvilon, Nemelex Xobeh or Makhleb next time you play MDFi or similar characters though, these are all much better than TSO and Zin. You could still switch to all of these except Makhleb without incurring god wrath.

[plantaspoon]

I don't really need the god as melee skill support to get thru the dungeon and trog and Oka lose their shine pretty quick in Zot. I like TSO because it frees up much needed armor slots. I can take the slots I was going to put toward rN+++ and Sinv and dedicate them to other resists. Trying to do zot or V8 without at least rN++ as melee means you will come out lower level than you went in.

I'm asking if Zin can be used in the same way. Mutations and bad status effects can be the undoing of a melee character and I'm asking if I can rely on Zin to cover those so i can gear differently. What's the reliability of his passive protections? Will I be able to recite an ancient lich into a salt pile if I pump invocations? What about an Orb of Fire?

[cerebovssquire]

Reciting in front of an Ancient Lich is a really silly thing to do (3 turns where he might do anything, including summoning 3 1s or Crystal Spearing you 3 times) and won't oneshot it. If I remember correctly, Orbs of Fire are unaffected because they are unliving.
Recite is barely useful at all. The passive protection effects and Sanctuary and Imprison are what make Zin a sort-of-decent god before and a great god in extended.
Passive protection is piety/200 (200 is max piety) for rRot, rHell-Effect, rMut. For very reliable life saving Elyvilon is what you want.

Uh... sInv and rN are both unimportant and definitely don't give TSO an edge over Nemelex, Makhleb and Elyvilon, even if you believe you can do without Okawaru and Trog. The game isn't about unseen horrors and shadow dragons so gods who are actually useful against everything in the game without being weak (the ones I named) are much stronger than TSO or Zin. Consider the ability to heal whenever you like and to smite-oneshot-"kill" even stuff like titans and ancient liches, and dragons and hydrae with ease, the broad powers of Nemelex who has some of the best summoning, healing and escape options of the game, or Makhleb's healing-for-kills and demons.

"I might be lower level after V:8" isn't really an argument, but very minor, and at least before Tomb and Tartarus rN is merely a convenience. Dangerous invisible enemies... well, Elyvilon, Nemelex and Makhleb all offer ways to counteract that which are just as good and much broader. It justifies swapping in rN rings or amulets of warding against shadow dragons. It doesn't justify a god choice that affects the whole game including large parts before and after V:8.
Also "lower level after Zot" is entirely incorrect. I usually don't even have rN and play loads of melee and somehow I still gain roughly 3 levels every time I clear it. One XL more or less makes little difference on non-Felids, it is _mainly_ the skills that define a character's strength and the game has so much EXP anyway.

Nothing stops you from abandoning Trog, or Okawaru especially; but Regeneration and MR, Brothers in Arms are still very useful in Zot (and the occasional Berserk with passing out protection). I also fail to see how doubled melee speed under Okawaru loses its shine anywhere, he is a great MDFi god before extended by when TSO becomes clearly superior. In addition, the executioner's axe you are basically guaranteed over the course of the game makes Zot easier too, of course, and you might be stuck with a battleaxe, broad axe or something with the others.

[plantaspoon]

My melee experiences in zot are pretty different. Last time I tried zot with trog and no rN I started at lvl 23 and was just lvl 24 by the orb chamber due to all the draining attacks from the shadow dragons. I was also peity starved because BIA is expensive and the ogres are just speed bumps for anything you'd want to use BIA against.

Thank you for the review of recite, that will save me some pain of not having to experiment with it.

With max Zin piety, 200/200 from what you say, I will be 100% immune to mutation, rot, and hell effects. Am i understanding that correctly?

Makhelb hp for kills is very useful, and it's a major bonus for TSO as well and the reason I'll switch to TSO after zot when I go for the other runes. I prefer to have the aura, divine shield, and summon angel to the unreliable summon demon and destruction invocations of Makhelb. Maybe just a difference of opinion there.

[cerebovssquire]

With max Zin piety, 200/200 from what you say, I will be 100% immune to mutation, rot, and hell effects. Am i understanding that correctly?

Yes. Oh, and I forgot sickness, there's another piety/200 check for that, I think.
I'm not quite sure if he prevents death curse rotting and the like, but his "rRot" definitely applies to miasma, as I found out against Gloorx Vloq.

In Trunk, with piety decay, having 200 piety constantly is basically impossible; in 0.9 I would still like to use my abilities a lot but your piety will be rising over time otherwise.

[plantaspoon]

Well, I ended up dying with Zin in Zot to a draconian summoner's death drake spam. I was mostly protected from the rot and sickness components, but the direct miasma blast to the face that killed me still did 25 base damage.

I took your advice on Ely and rolled up a DDHe that won with 5 runes as pure melee. Absolutely loved the build, but I felt that Ely would be hard to do the extended endgame with due to hunger and piety issues. I spent upwards of 3k turns in the abyss looking for the rune and it didn't come close to breaking even in net food when the corpses get rare. Healing myself and healing demons for piety is very hunger inducing and had to be done sparingly. If I had to do the extended end game like that I could easily have used all the consumable food in the game.

[tormodpwns]

Yep, TSO is still top-tier choice for the endgame (for melee characters at least, I've never taken a spellcaster past 3 runes). Others say that Nemelex and Kiku are also top-tier endgame choices, but I don't really see their points of view. Sure, Nemelex summons are nice, but it really doesn't mean anything against mass Fiends. Your "1" will get mobbed by 4 enemy "1"'s, and your swarm of red wasps are useless against demons (except Antaeus, lol). Kiku provides Necromutation and torment resistance, but Necromutation makes rTorment obsolete so basically all he really provides is a reliable source of Necromutation.

[cerebovssquire]

Nemelex is much, much more than just summons. I recommend you to look into decks of escape, dungeons, wonders, etc. besides summoning. Instant teleports, full heals if you get lucky on Elixir cards from the floor, Tomb cards, Trowel cards, Water cards (on Tomb:3 they are hilarious, for instance) and many more are just as useful in extended.
Also, "melee characters are good with TSO" is a generalisation that doesn't really work. I can think of loads of characters where I'd prefer Nemelex, Elyvilon, Zin or acouple others to TSO, amongst them
-demonspawn, mummies, ghouls, vampires where I'd usually go with Kiku/Nemelex/Makhleb
-unarmed fighters are really strong with the gods above and on non-Ds/Mu/Gh/Vp also with Zin and Elyvilon
-sometimes you find a good holy wrath weapon and will find TSO much less beneficial
etc.

[XuaXua]

MDFi?

You should update to Trunk and see what happens.