Stabbing and Evocations: Worth training?

[tormodpwns]

Hey Crawl community,

I have some questions. Is it ever worth training Stabbing on a non-assassin-type character? Some characters get a lot of stabbing opportunities via confusion, stealth, or other means, but if they specialize in a weapon other than Short/Long Blades, is it worth my time to train Stabbing? For reference, here is the damage chart (from the wiki, may be outdated):

  Code:

Stabbing skill    Short Blades    Long Blades    Others
Tier 1    Tier 2    Tier 3    Tier 1    Tier 2    Tier 3    Tier 1    Tier 2    Tier 3
1    +19.2%    +9.4%    +6.2%    +13.7%    +7.6%    +5.3%    +8.3%    +4.2%    +2.8%
2    +40%    +19.2%    +12.6%    +28.3%    +15.6%    +10.8%    +16.7%    +8.3%    +5.6%
3    +62.5%    +29.4%    +19.2%    +43.8%    +23.8%    +16.5%    +25%    +12.5%    +8.3%
4    +86.7%    +40%    +25.9%    +60%    +32.2%    +22.2%    +33.3%    +16.7%    +11.1%
5    +112.5%    +51%    +32.9%    +77.1%    +41%    +28.1%    +41.7%    +20.8%    +13.9%
6    +140%    +62.5%    +40%    +95%    +50%    +34.2%    +50%    +25%    +16.7%
7    +169.2%    +74.4%    +47.3%    +113.8%    +59.3%    +40.3%    +58.3%    +29.2%    +19.4%
8    +200%    +86.7%    +54.8%    +133.3%    +68.9%    +46.7%    +66.7%    +33.3%    +22.2%
9    +232.5%    +99.4%    +62.5%    +153.8%    +78.8%    +53.1%    +75%    +37.5%    +25%
10    +266.7%    +112.5%    +70.4%    +175%    +88.9%    +59.7%    +83.3%    +41.7%    +27.8%
11    +302.5%    +126%    +78.4%    +197.1%    +99.3%    +66.5%    +91.7%    +45.8%    +30.6%
12    +340%    +140%    +86.7%    +220%    +110%    +73.3%    +100%    +50%    +33.3%
13    +379.2%    +154.4%    +95.1%    +243.7%    +121%    +80.3%    +108.3%    +54.2%    +36.1%
14    +420%    +169.2%    +103.7%    +268.3%    +132.2%    +87.5%    +116.7%    +58.3%    +38.9%
15    +462.5%    +184.4%    +112.5%    +293.8%    +143.8%    +94.8%    +125%    +62.5%    +41.7%
16    +506.7%    +200%    +121.5%    +320%    +155.6%    +102.2%    +133.3%    +66.7%    +44.4%
17    +552.5%    +216%    +130.6%    +347.1%    +167.6%    +109.8%    +141.7%    +70.8%    +47.2%
18    +600%    +232.5%    +140%    +375%    +180%    +117.5%    +150%    +75%    +50%
19    +649.2%    +249.4%    +149.5%    +403.7%    +192.6%    +125.3%    +158.3%    +79.2%    +52.8%
20    +700%    +266.7%    +159.3%    +433.3%    +205.6%    +133.3%    +166.7%    +83.3%    +55.6%
21    +752.5%    +284.4%    +169.2%    +463.7%    +218.8%    +141.5%    +175%    +87.5%    +58.3%
22    +806.7%    +302.5%    +179.3%    +495%    +232.2%    +149.7%    +183.3%    +91.7%    +61.1%
23    +862.5%    +321%    +189.5%    +527.1%    +246%    +158.1%    +191.7%    +95.8%    +63.9%
24    +920%    +340%    +200%    +560%    +260%    +166.7%    +200%    +100%    +66.7%
25    +979.2%    +359.4%    +210.6%    +593.8%    +274.3%    +175.3%    +208.3%    +104.2%    +69.4%
26    +1040%    +379.2%    +221.5%    +628.3%    +288.9%    +184.2%    +216.7%    +108.3%    +72.2%
27    +1102.5%    +399.4%    +232.5%    +663.8%    +303.7%    +193.1%    +225%    +112.5%    +75%

Similarly, is it worth training Evocations on a non-Nemelex character? I currently have a +0 rod of destruction [ice], a +2 rod of destruction [fire], and a +3 rod of demonology on a character with level 1 Evocations and 0 aptitude. Is the skill worth training?

EDIT: I'm also a Large Shield and Robe user, so I have difficulty with Spellcasting.

Thanks in advance for advice.

[greepish]

For stabbing, I always turn it off at 1. Really I only turn a skill on if either it is consistently helpful or will save my butt in a some situations. Stabbing is really neither on non-stabber focused players. Evocations on the other hand I think is situational. Really depends on what your character is.

[tormodpwns]

Right, I forgot to mention that. I'm a Draconian Gladiator with robe/Large Shield, so I have difficulty with spellcasting. I probably do need Abjuration from the rod of demonology, but I'm wondering if it's worth training up Evocations to increase the spell power for just that one spell... everything else is destructive magic which I don't really need.

[Serne]

Evo skill STILL decreases rod hunger, so there is that.

And if you want to use those rods a bunch it'll be a food drain without at least some skill, as well as low skill causing problems with the power from a rod.

[CommanderC]

Abjuration Power (spell): (spellcasting/2 + 2*summoning)*INT/10
Abjuration Power (rod): 5 + 3*evocations

The food cost can't reach zero, but that's not the most important drawback. The time it takes to wield the rod, and the size of the mana pool are more important.

[Sealer]

I'd definitely train evocations with this set of rods if you don't want to use other forms of magic. That rod of freezing clouds is worth a lot (clears elf:5 fast, and anything not cold resistant as well).

[AtT]

You're going to want ridiculous evo if you plan on using a Crystal Ball of Energy for mp. It helps a lot with Wucad Mu / staff of channeling. So there's that

[XuaXua]

So... Stabbing is only useful in what situations? I thought it allowed occasional critical attacks during combat.

[mageykun]

Training stabbing does not increase the odds of rolling a critical hit in mele. Stabbing is rather, the art of taking advantage of a helpless opponent. It's not about learning to get lucky with your weapon, it's about learning to brutally hit your opponent where it hurts when they aren't covering up.

Granted, stabs function like a critical when in that when they happen, you can do massive amounts of damage compared to your usual mele hits. But the important difference is that critical hits are random lucky shots- while stabs only can work when you have the opportunity. When your opponent is fleeing, confused , distracted, asleep, or paralyzed (marked by "!", "?" or "Zz" in tiles). See here for some info on playing a primary stabber, and setting up / taking advantage of these situations.

I should also point out you can only stab with mele weapons. Spells and projectiles are out of luck.

Back on topic, it's tough to say in general whether a primarily non-stabbing character should train it (since there are a few factors to consider). On the one hand, extra damage might be nice on a mele character when it kicks in, especially as the game goes on and you have some xp to spare, but for a lot of builds you're not going to get to use it very often, and you're spending points you might need elsewhere. It's also a much smaller damage bonus if you're not using a dagger, or a short blade. It's less useful if you're unstealthy, since you're rarely going to get to a sleeping enemy. However, it is doable to tack a minor in stabbing on other roles though, especially if you're tacking advantage of stealth and/or have a good racial aptitude for it (for instance, the KoBe is the classic stabber / brawler, and I had a recent SpEE who ended up a blaster / stabber. Even a paladin might find themselves having earned a few levels in stabbing, once they've hit enough demons from behind!).

[starless]

I'd definitely train evocations with this set of rods if you don't want to use other forms of magic. That rod of freezing clouds is worth a lot (clears elf:5 fast, and anything not cold resistant as well).

The Ice rod also clears easily the infamous Hellion islands, which can be found in Hell or Pan.
Warding, ice, demonology, poison seem to be the most useful rods (at least to me) in that order.

[dondy]

stabbing doesn't require you to have any short blades skill - you can simply switch to a dagger and stab, there's no real relation between the two besides beeing lazy to switch (and on some occassions taking extra damage for taking time to switch) - at least for t1 stabs.

if you have no quite reliable source of stab-bonus damage then it's quite pointless to train it - from my experience.
it's not a expensive skill though - lv5 is good enough up to lair, f.e. and people usually won't get more than lv15 stabbing.
and there are a few ways to obtain low tier stab bonus damage, +Invis equipment f.e. or wands of confusion etc...

it makes you more item reliant though, thus can be quite a gamble - making it a pretty bad idea D:

on the other hand evocation is quite usefull generally - it basically leaves you with less trash items and some are really usefull,
esp. if you aren't able to use spellcasting too well D:

[cerebovssquire]

Warding, ice, demonology, poison seem to be the most useful rods (at least to me) in that order.

You're definitely leaving out summoning (Summon Swarm is really good, and even features yellow wasp paralysis) and inaccuracy/magma/cold: while magma and cold aren't too great inaccuracy deals ridiculous amounts of damage, and a lot of dangerous opponents or high-HP opponents have bad EV. Think large zombies, high-tier jellies, giants of all types, hydrae, certain hell/pan lords, etc.