Feasability of pure melee builds?


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 16:33

Feasability of pure melee builds?

I've consistently played mages and warrior-mages for a while now, with mixed results, and I want to learn to play more effective pure melee oriented characters. My fighters/gladiators/etc. tend to die horribly around the temple. My mages often live to depths in the teens if they get off the ground, mummies moving further, but all my stupid magic lacking fighters end up horribly dead, regardless of combinations I try.

What advice can be offered for these lacking characters?
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 16:53

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Troll Monk of Elyvilon works great in 0.10.

Pure melee builds require you to play much more smartly. Find a sling? Use it. Find a spear? Grab it and throw it. See your first ogre? Run away, unless you can soften it with sling or wand of flame or whatever (or just go berserk if you're with Trog).
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 18:06

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

HOPr is a very fun pure-melee build; your axe can take care of most enemies and your followers can usually defeat the rest. Smiting is also a pretty powerful early-game tool, useful for defeating Sigmund, et al. Berserkers are great for their early instant-win berserk button; they're a lot easier to advance than most melee builds.

Some general pure-melee tips:
-Corners are your friends.
  Code:
#.#
#M#
#M#
#M####
#..X..
######

X is where you'll want to be for every fight that might have the slightest chance of possibly including ranged enemies. It cuts LOS down to two squares; you can close the gap and start whacking them immediately (or, with orc priests behind regular orcs, wait for them to come to you, cut the orcs down as quickly as possible, and slaughter the priests). Even in open spaces, try to find corners; anything you can possibly do to reduce LoS is a very good thing.
-Rods can also be great; using scrolls of acquirement on staves so you can get them is a fantastic option. Be especially on the lookout for Freezing Cloud, Bolt of Inaccuracy, Abjuration, and Deflect Missiles; any one of those will make your life a lot easier.
-Summoners are *terrible.* They will be just about the hardest monsters to take care of without solid ranged options; treat them with extreme caution.
-Orc Priests will be your worst enemies early on; centaurs and orc wizards are also troublesome. Any fast enemy has potential to kill you; with no way to escape them, you have to just hope that you're stronger than they are.

...that's all I can think of for now; I hope it helps.

EDIT: Oh, also: your resources are far more important than they were for your mages. Identify them early, use them often. Scrolls of fog, blinking, teleportation, and fear; potions of healing, heal wounds, invisibility, resistance, and speed, and mid-tier blast wands like Fire and Cold (in addition to the obvious heal, haste, tele wands) are critical. Never leave home without some of them.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 18:29

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Death Knight is likewise pretty decent even without spells - I've killed three of them in the endgame now :P

You get zombie slaves of things you kill, plus exotic undead minions from your God, and Damage Mirror as a super-useful panic button.

People are right though, melee definitely involves having to play to your strengths, and be super vigilant about protecting your weaknesses. I've found I can be a bit more casual playing spellcasters, since they tend to have more answers to gnarly situations as the game goes on.
I am sure I played flawflessly. This was an utmost unfair death. -- gorbeh

Vestibule Violator

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 23:10

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

I don't really find melee lacking. Without magic you can focus on a few skills, which gets you great offense and defense. You will have to rely on items and your god for utility, though. Just play a MiBe IMO. Doesn't get more melee than that. MDBe might be better if you're not playing trunk. DK and HOPr are also pretty cool, but quite focused on permanent allies.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 23:25

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Heavy armoured fighters of TSO is very powerful. Blessed +9 Executioner's Axe will destroy everything. Daevas will help with tougher ones like Cerebov. Only Ziggurats are no-no without spells.

Starting with Elyvilon and then switching to TSO before clearing the Crypt probably offers the smoothest progression. Okawaru is a solid choice, too, but he can shower you with animal skins, -1 wizard hats and mediocre weapons and his wraith, while not as hardcore as Trog's, can still be troublesome. You get to transfer 50% of Ely's piety in trunk, too, but it's not game-changing since you'll go from zero to full piety with TSO in Crypt anyway, not to mention that engame is choke full of mobs that TSO hates.

Beginning kind of sucks, though. You have to use whatever you can find (spear, slings, nets, etc.) and identify your consumables early. And run away a lot. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of situations that will screw you over no matter what you do in the early game, like centaur or killer bee in D:2, but once you get the train rolling, the game is yours to lose, only your overconfidence and inattention are capable of killing you.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 01:39

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

I don't dislike ranged, just wanna ignore the Int stat and choose Str on every level.

I only recognize some of those places you mentioned, apparently less of my knowledge from Crawl 400 b26 carries over then I thought. Ignorant question... What is 'Trunk'?

Always had problems with piety on Ely and TSO worshippers. Started looking at the new Lugonu. Easy piety gain, and banishing the enemies to hard to kill (Sigmund, Erolcha, Unreachable orc priests, centaurs w/ branded bows.)

How are rods w/ hunger?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 01:47

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Lord Light wrote:How are rods w/ hunger?

Terrible; their hunger cost is not nearly as easy to mitigate as spells; the only thing that affects it is evocations skill, and it doesn't do enough. Highlevel rod spells are not a good idea for most fights, but they're very useful in a few fights.

Trunk is the development build of Crawl; it's slightly less stable than 0.9.1 but has all the recent changes.

Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 01:53

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Rod hunger never reaches 0 for any given spell on the rod, but higher Evo skill will reduce hunger to a certain point. In a tight situation the proper Rod is worth it's weight in gold. If you have food problems without using rods, then keep it as a sort of last resort.

The wiki states that at 27 Evocations u will lower hunger costs by 270... think the lowest possible hunger cost is capped somewhere in the low hundreds.

As for MiBe they are a cake walk to win once you get rolling... but getting a 15 rune win is almost definitely out of the question.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 02:25

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

*laughs* Even my scummed characters in 400 never won, though two got three runes. Legitamate characters never got 1. Hearing people talk about all the runes makes my jaw hurt from hitting the floor.

I *Really* don't like Trog. Too many berserk related deaths... As for food, I usually only have problems with accelerated use combinations, like trolls, centaurs, ogres, etc.
(Probably why I like mummies so much.)

Is there some place with a listing of racial food penalties?

AtT

Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 02:37

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Lord Light wrote:*laughs* Even my scummed characters in 400 never won, though two got three runes. Legitamate characters never got 1. Hearing people talk about all the runes makes my jaw hurt from hitting the floor.

I *Really* don't like Trog. Too many berserk related deaths... As for food, I usually only have problems with accelerated use combinations, like trolls, centaurs, ogres, etc.
(Probably why I like mummies so much.)

Is there some place with a listing of racial food penalties?


The wiki has (accurate for stable but probably not for trunk) racial food penalties. If you don't like eating then I would recommend a Kobold as generally have no trouble being fed. Other than that just remember not to cast spells that are very hungering (you can check by pressing Z and then !) unless you need too (obviously) and wait till spells are at least near hungerless before spamming them all the time (gained through increasing the spellcasting skill) Also I like mummies a lot and a MuSu of Sif is still pretty scummable if you'd like to try that lol.

For gods that like sacrifices try to pray over small corpses and eat the big ones and when in doubt, just chop it up and carry it (if you think you'll be hungry soon)

If you're playing stable the Hive is a major source of food (in trunk it was removed) to the point where it is pretty much excessive but you should probably avoid it if you don't have rPois.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 03:27

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Going pure melee is difficult especially if you don't take the nice support skills... e.g. Magic, Ranged skills or Evocations.

You'd have to rely on divine assistance like:

Okawaru - buffs and gifts; better to switch at late game once your armor slots are full
Trog - rage, brothers and gifts; nice if you get a powerful 2-handed anti-magic weapon
TSO - protection and angels; bless a weapon to kill demons with ease
Mahkleb - destruction, healing and demons; gives a way to deal ranged damage

The simplest way to go at it is to go with Trog, wait for an anti-magic weapon with nice base damage to pour all your enchant weapon scrolls on, then raise your skill to minimum delay.

Then pawn stuff until late game, summoning the occasional brother for difficult critters. As long as you can close the distance(and separate enemies), your weapon will stop spell casters(demons & undead included) as you pound them to a pulp. :lol:

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 03:35

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Lord Light wrote:I don't dislike ranged, just wanna ignore the Int stat and choose Str on every level.

I only recognize some of those places you mentioned, apparently less of my knowledge from Crawl 400 b26 carries over then I thought. Ignorant question... What is 'Trunk'?

Always had problems with piety on Ely and TSO worshippers. Started looking at the new Lugonu. Easy piety gain, and banishing the enemies to hard to kill (Sigmund, Erolcha, Unreachable orc priests, centaurs w/ branded bows.)

How are rods w/ hunger?


Ely just loves stacks of ammo. Artefact dagger? Disappears without a glow. A stack of forty stones? Brightly shimmers!

TSO does take forever to build piety and his active abilities aren't that useful early, even though passive bonuses like life protection and his halo that makes enemies easier to hit and show invisible enemies are really nice. It would take a long time before you can take advantage of his summons and for that time you're basically on your own.

Lugonu provides various escape options, but none of them are as good as Ely's.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 04:19

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

@Eaki: By 'pure', I just meant a warrior who doesn't end up forgetting he has a sword. All my hybrid mages end up as pure mages, ignoring there weapon.

In/Evocations sit just fine, as does shoot/throwing stuff. Just want to avoid becoming (Yet another) mage.

What exactly is minimum delay? I know higher skills grant quicker attacks, but I didn't know it stopped.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 04:29

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

There is a minimum delay for each type of weapon. With a quick blade, you can get "blindingly fast" which is the fastest attack speed in the game. But no matter how high your M&F skill is, your demon whip won't strike as fast (unless it has speed brand or you're using Okawaru's Finesse or hasted).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 08:22

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?


As for MiBe they are a cake walk to win once you get rolling... but getting a 15 rune win is almost definitely out of the question.



First part I entirely agree with. The second bit is absolute nonsense. If you're using two-handers (axes) the probability that you receive an antimagic executioner's axe is very high. This is one of the best weapons possible to fight &s and the dangerous 1s since it will prevent them from using really dangerous spells, and your AC will usually be good enough that you don't need to fear their physical abilities.
You also have invokable regeneration and MR, which are both still very useful especially if you lack MR items.
Brothers in Arms have to be used intelligently (it's no longer ac, flee, wait till everything is dead) but are still a tremendous help since they dish out like hell.
It isn't hard to allrune pure melee (my first win was actually an allruned pure melee character who picked up a crossbow for use in Zot which was unnecessary), and Trog, while inferior to TSO, is nowhere near useless.
For an easier extended endgame, go TSO. Trog is still going to be strong.
You should also have decent elemental resistances if you're in some kind of dragon armour (especially GDA) which I would try to get for extended.

In addition to ammo sacrifices being awesome, the piety you get for pacification was doubled in Trunk (along with her piety decaying now) which is quite fun. Above all it makes Greater Healing even more spammable than before.

If you keep dying berserk-related deaths I think there are two possible answers: "berserk intelligently" (woo oxymoron) or "just use Okawaru next time".

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 13:05

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

cerebovssquire wrote:

As for MiBe they are a cake walk to win once you get rolling... but getting a 15 rune win is almost definitely out of the question.



First part I entirely agree with. The second bit is absolute nonsense. If you're using two-handers (axes) the probability that you receive an antimagic executioner's axe is very high. This is one of the best weapons possible to fight &s and the dangerous 1s since it will prevent them from using really dangerous spells, and your AC will usually be good enough that you don't need to fear their physical abilities.
You also have invokable regeneration and MR, which are both still very useful especially if you lack MR items.
Brothers in Arms have to be used intelligently (it's no longer ac, flee, wait till everything is dead) but are still a tremendous help since they dish out like hell.
It isn't hard to allrune pure melee (my first win was actually an allruned pure melee character who picked up a crossbow for use in Zot which was unnecessary), and Trog, while inferior to TSO, is nowhere near useless.
For an easier extended endgame, go TSO. Trog is still going to be strong.
You should also have decent elemental resistances if you're in some kind of dragon armour (especially GDA) which I would try to get for extended.

In addition to ammo sacrifices being awesome, the piety you get for pacification was doubled in Trunk (along with her piety decaying now) which is quite fun. Above all it makes Greater Healing even more spammable than before.

If you keep dying berserk-related deaths I think there are two possible answers: "berserk intelligently" (woo oxymoron) or "just use Okawaru next time".

Does antimagic affect demons? I had no idea, I thought it wouldn't since silence doesn't.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 13:10

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Antimagic affects anything with spells, including demons and holies. Natural abilities like dragon breath are not affected.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 18:09

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

In addition, spell-like invocations aren't affected (for instance, you can't neutralise an orc high priest with it, sadly).
Antimagic sorta draws magical energies out of your enemy's body whereas silence just prevents them from making noises required for spells. Demons have this magical energy but don't need to speak.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 23:06

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

cerebovssquire wrote:In addition, spell-like invocations aren't affected (for instance, you can't neutralise an orc high priest with it, sadly).


Yes, you can. Few swings of antimagic Executioner's axe neutralise an orc high priest just fine :)

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 06:42

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Smite and hellfire seems to be invoked abilities so you can't stop them with anti-magic or silence? Damn.
Does it also apply to torment? Hmp, but for that at least we can go necromutation.

The nastiest sources of damage seem to be unavoidable and unblockable.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 07:47

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

You can antimagic both smiting and hellfire from demons, if I remember correctly; other very annoying spells that I'm happy to block are Summon (Greater) Demon and Fire/Ice Storm.
Demons never "pray to their gods" but always just "gesture".

  Code:
 The smoke demon gestures at you.                                               
_Something smites you!                                                         
 You slice the smoke demon!!                                                   
 The smoke demon's magic leaks into the air.                                   
 You bite the smoke demon.                                                     
 The smoke demon is severely wounded. 


I let the thing flap around for the next ten turns or so. It only tried to claw through 35 AC (nice try, dude).

Also, technically smiting and hellfire damage can be avoided by blocking LOS, and in addition it is affected by DD's damage shaving.

Yes, you can. Few swings of antimagic Executioner's axe neutralise an orc high priest just fine :)


You know what I meant. :P
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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 8th November 2011, 18:32

Re: Feasability of pure melee builds?

Spriggan Assassin of Trog! +2 dagger helps w/ early game, Trog grants weapons (I got a +0/+9 Quick Blade, which was vorpalized w/ a Freezing brand after I found a plain deck of defence w/ a couple blade cards in them), and berserk is awesome/hunger no problem after Hive.
"It's lucky to be smart, but smarter to be lucky."
- sirlaser the Eclecticist (Human Wanderer), worshipper of Ashenzari

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