What is wrong with this...

[SchwaWarrior]

Create new character (High Elf Conjurer).

Sweep D:1. Find a Ring of +4 Dexterity and a Ring of Sustain Abilities.

Enter D:2.

Appear right next to Sigmund, who's waiting adjacent to the staircase.

Die in one hit.

None of my scrolls were Teleport or Blink.

...I mean what, does this game purposefully do this shit and give you really great items and then kill you unfairly just to piss you off? Was there anything I could have done? Do I just suck? Why do I constantly have to deal with crap like this? Everyone else here seems to be some kind of damn expert that can win every time or beat insane situations like this, maybe I'm just beyond grasping this game...

It's absolutely exasperating.

[ElectricAlbatross]

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=why

[TehDruid]

@SchwaWarrior I sympathize with you man. I always get pissed when I find a great item (especially rings of slaying, which I find to be extremely rare) and then die to (un)avoidable situations. Sometimes it's just the dungeon layout pushing you deeper because of big threats on certain levels (my new best is orc warlord on D:8 in some kind of orc fort) to lower levels which you probably can't handle. I'm sure lots of people who you think of as "experts" have had their nice series of YASDs. Me (not an expert, lol), for example, I've been playing this game since 0.6, I have beaten it only once (with a "noob" combo, too, HOFi) and I've been trying a lot. The way I see it, the easier the species is to play, the easiest it is to survive longer, no matter how hard the dungeon is. For example, you can't compare the survivalability of an OgBe to that of an OcBe. I know, this is a bad comparison, but I hope you get what I mean. Besides, yes, sometimes the RNG is just a bitch.

What would you be saying if you found a ring of wizardry and staff of energy instead?

[rchandra]

Create new character (High Elf Conjurer).
...I mean what, does this game purposefully do this shit and give you really great items and then kill you unfairly just to piss you off? Was there anything I could have done? Do I just suck? Why do I constantly have to deal with crap like this? Everyone else here seems to be some kind of damn expert that can win every time or beat insane situations like this, maybe I'm just beyond grasping this game...

It's absolutely exasperating.

Even on the forum, which will have selection bias towards winning players (particularly among those who stay), I'm sure that many or most have not won. I've never gotten a rune, gotten a few characters to clearing Lair subbranches, and hundreds of deaths. With many builds I never get to the Temple, or never get anything relevant from my god.

In your situation, all you could do is run away (not upstairs), and gain a square on Sigmund when he casts a spell or you get lucky, then get to a staircase (possibly the same one) and go up. Quite likely this will not work. (I'm assuming you had one action. if he hit you as you came down and you died, then it's just one of those days and you should have a nice meal.)

[cerebovssquire]

If it makes you feel better, a ring of +4 dexterity is absolute rubbish and a ring of sustain abilities is only very situationally useful.

For example, you can't compare the survivalability of an OgBe to that of an OcBe.

That is quite a bad comparison since both species are (in)famous for dying easily. I'd rather say "HOBe" or "SpBe" instead of "OgBe" here.

[joellercoaster]

Hey,

don't let it get you down. If it helps, I've only ever been killed by Sigmund three times in hundreds of games - and the third time was yesterday. Young characters are squishy, and with all the care in the world, sometimes you drop one

You can reduce your chances of dying more than most people realise, but sometimes you are still just going to get killed by the rub of the green. I like rchandra's advice to just have a nice meal

[SchwaWarrior]

If it makes you feel better, a ring of +4 dexterity is absolute rubbish and a ring of sustain abilities is only very situationally useful.

Actually this just makes me mad at you. :-/ I happen to adore both items and find them EXTREMELY nice, especially since I have two Ring slots filled right off the bat, and now if I could just curse both slots I'm on a roll with piety early-on. I almost never get that until like several floors down, and I hesitate to curse a slot with a Ring of Fire or Ice just because I'm afraid of being pinned by unfortunate Super-Effective elemental attacks. Calling these items rubbish feels like you're calling the way I play the game rubbish, which feels like you're calling ME rubbish. I have this problem with several members of this forum.

What would you be saying if you found a ring of wizardry and staff of energy instead?

Well... in that case I probably would have tried to square off against Sigmund close-range and hope he chooses to use his Scythe and misses, rather than two-shotting me with Magic Dart or Freeze Shot or whatever it was he cast. With the power boost I would have hoped three or four point-blank Magic Darts would have been enough to win (it has worked sometimes!). Then if I would have died, I would have been... still kinda mad, but at least I would have felt responsible for dying instead of getting slighted by the RNG. (I feel better when things are my fault.)

I like rchandra's advice to just have a nice meal

Except I'm tired of chili and that's the only food I have left in the house until I get paid in a week :'(

[daggaz]

Dont feel too bad, those rings are crap and situational at best, respectively. Stat bonus? Sure some dex is nice on an evasion character in the first couple of levels, but after that it is pure garbage compared to so many other rings. I cant possibly imagine *cursing* the damn thing and keeping it in Vault, for example. Sustain abilities? Meh, usually easy to counteract stat drain by the time you meet a monster capable of dishing this out, with pots and (soon to be more rare) royal jelly. If you really need to, you could slip this on to save your skin/resources, but its nothing you want to have all day long.

Better rings? Poison resistance (especially in the early levels) is a godsend. MR is _always_ useful. Rings of resist fire/ice are great, especially for special vaults or enemies loaded with enchanted ammunition. Ring of Magic for a caster. Ring of guardian spirit for melee (and slayer which is like winning the lottery if its not cursed). Sustenance for slowing down the food clock and/or spamming otawaru piety on nearly every kill. I could go on..

But yeah, coming down the stairs right next to Sigmund can really blow, especially if he one shots you. Its rare, tho. I nearly always get the drop on him, instead.

[SchwaWarrior]

Dont feel too bad, those rings are crap and situational at best, respectively. Stat bonus? Sure some dex is nice on an evasion character in the first couple of levels, but after that it is pure garbage compared to so many other rings. I cant possibly imagine *cursing* the damn thing and keeping it in Vault, for example. Sustain abilities? Meh, usually easy to counteract stat drain by the time you meet a monster capable of dishing this out, with pots and (soon to be more rare) royal jelly. If you really need to, you could slip this on to save your skin/resources, but its nothing you want to have all day long.

Well yeah, later game I'd rather swap it out for a better ring, but to find +4 Dex on D:1 right off the bat is fantastic. The reason I love Sustain Abilities is because I Use-ID all my potions and I usually end up getting Degeneration on the first few floors, which kills one of my stats by like 4 points. That, along with Sickness from eating bad chunks (since I cast Mephitic a LOT and that causes very fast Hungering and I can't always afford to wait for clean chunks), and occasionally bouts against Quasits or Shadows mess my stats up too, and if my Strength ever drops by one point I find myself suddenly Burdened or Overloaded. So... early-on it's nice to be free from that if I find it. I don't see what the problem is.

EDIT: Oh right, even with the ring on your stats are still not safe. D: I drank a Degeneration potion with the ring and it still clipped my Intelligence by 1.

Better rings? Poison resistance (especially in the early levels) is a godsend. MR is _always_ useful. Rings of resist fire/ice are great, especially for special vaults or enemies loaded with enchanted ammunition. Ring of Magic for a caster. Ring of guardian spirit for melee (and slayer which is like winning the lottery if its not cursed). Sustenance for slowing down the food clock and/or spamming otawaru piety on nearly every kill. I could go on..

If I find any of these, then yes, I pick them over Sustain Abilities. Especially Wizardry and the max-MP-boost one.

You know my favorite combo of all time, though? Cursed ring of teleport + Ring of Control Teleport. That there is pretty much the ultimate spellcaster defense. >:3 It's not often I find both, though. Least not 'till later when I end up prefering other Rings anyway (Randarts).

But yeah, coming down the stairs right next to Sigmund can really blow, especially if he one shots you. Its rare, tho. I nearly always get the drop on him, instead.

I got my revenge already. Killed the f#cker in melee while he was INVISIBLE, with my caster. I don't even know how it happened so easily, maybe he whacked himself or the nearby Gnolls whonked him for me or I dunno...

Currently that same character ventured all the way into the Elven Halls and he's still going! I'll play later though. For now I'm gonna have some chili. Since, you know, there's nothing else. ^^;;

[o_O]

Sometimes Sigmund or Grinder just instakill you and thats how it goes. Elf spellcasters are a little bit squishy in the early game, but have good ranged and escape options. If you come down the stairs literally next to something horrible, well, thats the RNG. As the game progresses unavoidable deaths become very rare or nonexistant and you will always have some options available to deal with things.

You asked for advice, and "those rings are bad" is pretty solid advice. Neither is going to help you, unless you are an evasion fighter or a deep dwarf or get surrounded by quasits.

[AtT]

See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=352.

[Roderic]

I read some years ago that the difference between NetHack and Crawl is that the former doesn't care about you and the latter tries actively to kill you

[Megabass]

I know what you mean. Started an OgBe before bed last night, walked one step and found a mottled dragon armor, then a ring of sustenance and amulet of the gourmand on D1. Next couple floors continued to drop more 'rather nice things', let's say, into my lap.

At this point, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop and Xom to crap himself laughing.

[Konebred]

Hah yah this sucks. Had the same thing happen to me the other day. First time trying a sludge elf transmuter, I find 2 rings of wizardry before d4. Step down on d4right next to grinder who paralyzes me and he slays me before I get a chance to do anything.

[File200]

I've had my fair share of deaths from turning corners, but never from going downstairs. My favorite is walking around in my dragon armour and in one turn losing all of my hit points to a yaktaur captain with bolts of frost. Yeah, don't walk around with a vulnerability in an area known for enemies with enchanted ammo. Most of these deaths are avoidable if you look back a few turns. Sigmund/Grinder is just luck, though.

Don't worry about losing a character that had a great start. In Crawl, luck isn't about finding a sweet artifact or an early altar; that stuff evens out in the long run. A really lucky game is one in which you never run into one of these (seemingly) inescapable deaths. (And those items were bad anyway. +4 dexterity is good for maybe 2 points of EV if you train dodging a lot.)

[jejorda2]

I don't think I've ever had a death on the same turn I go down staircase for the first time. I must say I'm surprised to hear so many people saying it's happened to them.

And yes, those rings are crap.

Do you visit all three staircases before exploring a new level? I do, and it wakes everything up and they're waiting for me when I get to that third stair.

I've probably only died going down new stairs twice in 3k+ games, and they were when I forgot to rest before going down stairs. But I've been clobbered close to death while descending plenty of times.

[Tiber]

My favorite starting combo: 2 rings of magical power + guardian spirit. OK, so they changed guardian spirit in trunk to split damage between HP and MP (Note that I actually like this change because using guardian spirit is now pretty viable for some hybrid casters), but it made your character a tank.

As for those rings, they're not great, but something that's good yet not as good as other things is still something good. Deep Dwarves and Xom worshipers would love sustain abilities (the latter because, even though it doesn't protect you from Xom stat drains, he drains you enough that you don't need anything adding to it).

[cerebovssquire]

As for those rings, they're not great, but something that's good yet not as good as other things is still something good.

These rings aren't "good but not optimal", these rings are "bad". They're about as valuable as Amulets of Controlled Flight. While one should of course wear them over having an empty ring slot I'd much prefer to find a +2 robe or +0 cloak on D:1.

Also, I'm might be dumb but somehow can't comprehend the logic behind "A ring of +4 dexterity is rubbish" -> "You are rubbish". When I say an item is rubbish I mean that item is rubbish and I'm not hiding any insults between the lines.

[Danei]

OP, I'm afraid these people are right.

Those rings are straight-up bad. Whether YOU are bad or not does not impact whether those rings are bad, which they are. Particularly +4 dex.

Well yeah, later game I'd rather swap it out for a better ring, but to find +4 Dex on D:1 right off the bat is fantastic.

It isn't, though. Like, if you look into what having an extra 4 dex actually does for your character, you will certainly agree that it is not a fantastic item, or even a good one.

For example, the amount of survivability you gain from that ring is less than the amount you would gain from finding an unenchanted cloak instead (I think).

Some actually fantastic rings to find on D:1 are regeneration, Max MP (if you're a caster), and protection (if the bonus is sizable).

[Pteriforever]

An extra 4 INT, on the other hand...

[SchwaWarrior]

Ehh... I never even thought about dodging; I always looked at Dexterity as "your attacks will hit more often and that is a good thing".

And regeneration... I usually don't wear those when I find them, because the increased hunger side-effect scares me :-/

Everyone here at these forums plays this game so weird compared to me and it intimidates me to be here. v_v

[Caethan]

And regeneration... I usually don't wear those when I find them, because the increased hunger side-effect scares me :-/

The increased hunger only kicks in when you're actually regenerating HP, and it costs roughly as much hunger to heal back your HP as it would cost normally if you just waited it out by resting, so there's essentially no downside to wearing one.

[Pteriforever]

+STR is nice too, even if only for the carrying capacity.

[cerebovssquire]

+STR is nice too, even if only for the carrying capacity.

If you're having problems with your carrying capacity and don't happen to be a Spriggan with 3 STR this is because you are carrying too much useless stuff around with you.
STR's main effect is the reduction of armour penalties up to a certain point, so it is most probably useless on HECj.

[njvack]

STR's main effect is the reduction of armour penalties up to a certain point, so it is most probably useless on HECj.

Doesn't it also give a modest bonus to unarmed damage? Not that it'd make STR any more useful to a HECj...

[cerebovssquire]

Unarmed damage is weighted STR 40 / DEX 60. The bonus from both stats is very modest nonetheless.