Invisibility and doors

[ProZocK]

Hail fellow crawlers

Im just want to share a little trick, dont know if its well known.

Is Sigmund invisible and running after you? Just go to an open door, pass trough it and close it. As soon as he gets to the door he will spend his action opening it. Then you just close it again in his face, he will open it again and you close it again. You can keep doing this as long as you want( so the invisibility spell will end or to regen mana for example) and works with any monster.

It this makes you feel like you are trolling the monster, sing the Trololo song, thats what i do.

[Serne]

Hadn't thought of doing that... it's like a pillar dance without moving eh?

[ProZocK]

Hadn't thought of doing that... it's like a pillar dance without moving eh?

Exacly, and by my experience its even safer, since the monster wont cast spells or do anything other than opening the door.

[TehDruid]

I reckon I'm gonna come out as a bad person to you, but to me this is just another form of scumming... If you can't run away from potential death with any decent thinking and using your consumables, don't resort to cheap tricks and learn to accept defeat like a man. That's how you learn how to not get into these situations. Well, of course, if you like this way of playing, good for you, but don't expect any serious person to applaud it.

Look, I'm not saying "Don't use the doors!!!". No, they have their tactical advantages, of course. And I'm all for blocking non-intelligent beasts with doors to save your ass (although frankly, a door stopping an elephant is kinda pathetic ) but seriously, this is just cheap.

[Serne]

So is pillar dancing.

[AtT]

I really don't see how this is any more cheap than pillar dancing. I've never thought of it before but it seems like a similar idea. You could still have something scary walk up behind you, and you're also limited to ONLY closing the door while the opponent is committed to opening it. If say an orc opens the door can another orc slip in the space at the same time? Or perhaps a snake?

[Serne]

I used this tactic a couple times DURING a retreat, and yes one mob can open a door and the other step through in the same turn. So it's only useful if it's a single enemy. To like I said before hadn't thought of using the mechanic this way.

[ProZocK]

I reckon I'm gonna come out as a bad person to you, but to me this is just another form of scumming... If you can't run away from potential death with any decent thinking and using your consumables, don't resort to cheap tricks and learn to accept defeat like a man. That's how you learn how to not get into these situations. Well, of course, if you like this way of playing, good for you, but don't expect any serious person to applaud it.

Look, I'm not saying "Don't use the doors!!!". No, they have their tactical advantages, of course. And I'm all for blocking non-intelligent beasts with doors to save your ass (although frankly, a door stopping an elephant is kinda pathetic ) but seriously, this is just cheap.

I already do. But i rather accept victory LIKE A BOSS!

Dont worry man, I dont expect anyone to thank me for this, but as some people have said, I dont see how this is different than pillar dancing. And if it is as scummylicious as you say, well, the devs need only to make doors destroyable by any monster. I know jellys can already destroy then.

[daggaz]

Easy enough to code some "AI" especially for higher lvl monsters versus this: cast haste or quaff speed potion, open and attack. blink _thru_ closed door (should be allowed if monster has seen thru the open door once). shout for help. sneak around the back way...

[Galefury]

Actually it doesn't work indefinitely. Energy randomization will eventually give the monster a double action, which it will often use to open the door, then step into it. Sigmund will whack you with his scythe in .10 instead of stepping into the door because he got reaching. Same for ranged enemies, they will usually use the double action to shoot you.

[Serne]

so... the solution is MOAR TAB?

[cerebovssquire]

Sure, do you want to be a cheap person who abuses tricks? No serious player would ever use anything else.

[TehDruid]

...I'm not saying the game needs AI adjustments, as I'm enjoying it very much the way it is. But. One way I'd think of the door "abuse" (if you will) being medicated is if the monster on the one side of the door rolled a STR-dependent check against the character who is on the other side of the door every turn they stay there, and if they can't move it they have to wait till the character moves one square away. Large beings that can walk through deep water, like stone giants and elephants should be able to smash doors outright if pursuing somebody through them.

Now, to those of you that do things the way the OP seems to (in a like-a-boss manner), no hard feelings. I don't mind If you don't like a hint of common sense in your roguelike, cause it's a game after all. Shutting a door that stands between you and the opponent is ok, especially if they're still far and trying to nuke you with smite/ranged nuke, but if you do it the way the OP suggested initially, it gets cheap and ridiculous to look at. And yes, as someone stated above, you can still die by a monster that joins in the fight unexpectedly, I know that... Also at some point the monster will probably get a double action and open the door AND walk into it. I'm not saying no to these things.

As for pillar dancing, I never endorsed it as some have speculated, let alone use it (but for that I cannot really convince you) . I instead look for the nearest stairs and return when I'm more powerful to beat the crap out of whatever would force me do it.

All I'm saying is that crawl is a difficult roguelike with a certain philosophy that strives for having as few holes for abuse and no-brainers as possible. Cheap and (even worse) tedious "tactics" shouldn't exist.

[cerebovssquire]

Good:
"oh crap, I'm wounded, better quaff this potion of healing" (this is common sense, and good tactics!)
"oh crap, I'm wounded, no potion of healing, better run to the stairs and hope the 50% chance of surviving is on my side" (this is facing defeat like a man because honour matters in videogaming!)

Bad:
"oh crap, I'm wounded, let's find a way to disable my opponent while I can heal up HP and MP" (this is cheap exploitation and no serious player would do it! it also defies common sense because saving a potion when you don't need to use one or forcing your opponent to become visible is clearly against the principle of that!)

</sarcasm>

This might help you.

If any change should be made to current action/movement mechanics it should be removal of randomised energy in my opinion. Not only does it screw up tactics in some cases (positioning for Shock for example) but it also randomly lets you escape or get you killed.
Okay, it's not half as bad as double actions were but the principle is the same screwed up form of randomness that adds too much unpredictability to calculating what might happen next turn.

[Mu]

ya it's like when you hold a door shut from one side irl and a police officer is on the other side trying to push it open

[AtT]

Honestly I don't see a problem with it. I don't do it or pillar dancing not out of principle but because I find them both tedious and I will always go for the stairs if possible. Maybe that is abuse but really this is just a kind of a neat trick that is rarely useful/practical. It's not some issue like oldschool Mu/Vp scumming that needed to be fixed its just shutting the door in Sigmund's face. I say get over it and do whatever makes your own game more enjoyable. It's not savescumming, it's not exploiting a glitch, it's just trolling Sigmund.

[Anonymous Bosch]

It's good old fashioned slapstick comedy, I tell you. Any stooge-ly adventurer would happily do this if a door was all that stood between him and a m-m-m-monster.

[pratamawirya]

Yeah this trick doesn't work indefinitely. Sometimes, the monster can just rush in after opening the door, and there's nothing the player can do.

[paplaukes]

Maybe a bit offtopic, but why do you people mention stairs as an option to run away? Uniques/baddies follow, don't they?

[TehDruid]

Well, even stairs are cheap (are intelligent monsters incapable of following you when they saw you using them?) but it's there to keep the game balanced I assume.

[Galefury]

Maybe a bit offtopic, but why do you people mention stairs as an option to run away? Uniques/baddies follow, don't they?

Only if they are adjacent to you when you use the stairs. If there is the slightest bit of space between you and the monster they wont follow. Which is one of the reasons blink is so good.

[ProZocK]

Well, even stairs are cheap (are intelligent monsters incapable of following you when they saw you using them?) but it's there to keep the game balanced I assume.

Wait, from what you said in this thread, you dont pillar dance and you think stairs are cheap? What do you usually do when you find a hill giant on D:6? Or a swarm of killer bees? You wont always have a teleport scroll...
I am not trying to be an ass, but your view on gameplay is pretty hardcore...

[TehDruid]

In case you're trolling, I'm not amused.

In case you don't, I'm sorry that you can't interpret text... Learn to read.

[ProZocK]

In case you're trolling, I'm not amused.

In case you don't, I'm sorry that you can't interpret text... Learn to read.

No man, im not trolling, i even said right there that im no trying to be an ass, no need to get angry about it. Im honesly curious, since you said stairs are cheap.

Maybe I should have explained myself beter, you said you dont pillar dance, but what about stair dancing, like separating those bees into manageable numbers between leves, thats my question.

I have not been beligerant towards you in any of my posts, even after you told me in your first reply to accept defeat like a man, i just played it off with my boss comment, but please dont tell me to learn to read, its uncalled for.

[joellercoaster]

*ahem*

[ilpalazzo]

I think druid suggests just dieing already and starting over a new character.

[TehDruid]

Since I like forums being peaceful, I won't get into more arguing about this thing... If you didn't get what I've said up till my last post, that's too bad for you. And If you feel that I'm giving you grief in any way, please ignore me, ProZocK. That goes for anyone else too. This isn't RL, you don't have to "put up" with the likes of me. End of discussion on this subject. Well, by me anyway.

[ilpalazzo]

Things are alright for me but here are some possible suggestions to nerf things:
door closing->door is blocked by monster that opened it even when adjacent one square (not right on the door tile)
stairs->all aware monsters in sight follow on the next level with delay of turns needed to reach stairs
pillars->Xom getting bored

[spurious]

It's not scumming!! Good gosh. Think of it as Sigmund is chasing you, you close a door on him and the serial act of you closing/him opening is really just a long struggle to keep the door closed against him. Totally rational response to imminent death for a low-level character.