best zig spells in 0.25?


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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Tuesday, 5th May 2020, 21:00

best zig spells in 0.25?

I've come back to some more serious crawling recently and I am going to resume hunting my white whale of a mega zig character once 0.25 is done. I think a lot of the changes from 0.24 to 0.25 are very interesting and a lot of them have impacts in the zig stage of the game. Specifically:

- Glaciate replaced with Absolute Zero, which is a really interesting spell but clearly inappropriate for a mega zig
- DMSl removed
- CBoE removed (makes mana regen during combat trickier until you find a staff of wucad mu, which is much rarer than a cboe)
- Kiku wrath seems tougher now, which means having to wait longer to switch to Makhleb (I had been counting on a wizard start going into Necromancy via Kiku, it seems much easier than Vehumet)

As always, there are more spells that I want than spell slots with which to learn them. Here are my top candidates, in alphabetical order
- Borgnjor's Revivification
- Controlled Blink
- Darkness (just very helpful to reduce LoS, especially on entry, assuming I can spare the slots)
- Death's Door (this and Borg's make each other stronger but the combination is very spell-slot intensive)
- Discord (would be extremely helpful for spider floors, but perhaps invisibility is enough on its own)
- Disjunction (helpful for avoiding chaos-branded attacks, but perhaps in the limit of a screenful of enemies this has nowhere to put them and becomes useless just as I need it most)
- Fire Storm
- Infestation (this seems very strong, assuming I can spare the slots to learn it and the turns to cast it; gumming up the screen with allies is a great way to slow down the rest of the zig floor from rushing to fill in the gaps created by e.g. fire storm)
- Invisibility (a source of this is practically a must for spider floors, no? Is evocable invis good enough, since I will be activating it right before descending to the next floor anyway?)
- Necromutation
- Ozocubu's Refrigeration (mass cold damage, just got buffed, maybe this is great now for fire-themed floors?)
- Shatter
- Sublimation of Blood
- Tornado

What are everyone's thoughts on which spells to go for and which to leave behind?

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Thursday, 7th May 2020, 17:13

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

I'm currently thinking:

- Borg's
- Cause Fear (mainly for spider floors)
- CBlink
- Darkness
- DDoor
- Fire Storm
- Ignition
- Nmut
- Shatter
- Sublimation
- Butterflies
- Tornado

But I am not sure whether it would be better to replace one of either Borgs, DDoor, or Ignition with Disjunction. One thing that is nice is that javelins were effectively buffed, since they all penetrate and silver now includes the steel bonus, so silver javelins are very useful spell-less single-target removal across all of LoS.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Thursday, 7th May 2020, 18:02

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

If you get very deep into a Zig, do critters remain feared? From my experience creatures that can't flee immediately become un-feared, and from the screenshots I've seen from mega-zigs it's very common for all creatures to be boxed in by other creatures.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Friday, 8th May 2020, 02:12

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

Oh man, you are right about how the fear would work. I was hoping they would just stand there and be very, very afraid but I guess that's too much to ask. Discord would be quite satisfying in that niche but dropping Cause Fear, Butterflies, and Sublimation leaves me at 7 slots free, 1 short :cry:

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Friday, 8th May 2020, 12:04

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

So then taking out Cause Fear and Sublimation I could pick up Dispersal - maybe that could be useful to reduce melee pressure once some space has been cleared by Tornado, Shatter, and Fire Storm? Or I could additionally drop Butterflies to get Dragon Form for emergency UC melee? Maybe Statue Form instead, now that I think about it, for emergency UC melee with torment sources around?

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Saturday, 9th May 2020, 21:10

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

mathmaestro wrote:I'm currently thinking:

- Borg's
- Cause Fear (mainly for spider floors)
- CBlink
- Darkness
- DDoor
- Fire Storm
- Ignition
- Nmut
- Shatter
- Sublimation
- Butterflies
- Tornado

But I am not sure whether it would be better to replace one of either Borgs, DDoor, or Ignition with Disjunction. One thing that is nice is that javelins were effectively buffed, since they all penetrate and silver now includes the steel bonus, so silver javelins are very useful spell-less single-target removal across all of LoS.


I haven't mega zigged in awhile, and there are many postings with a lot of detail about it, but here's the quick run-down from my perspective:

Firestorm/Ignition/Tornado are your base tools, blended with staff of energy channeling. You're pretty much always wanting to keep your health and mana as full as possible, and nuke stuff before it has a chance to do anything to you. The gotchas come from mummies (which mostly require necromutation to survive), ghost moths which drain your mana (you want to use ignition and tornado on these levels quickly), orbs of fire (which are difficult to kill with only ignition/firestorm/tornado--so add in ozocubu's) and pan lords which are resistant/tough enough to survive the AOE attacks and start pounding you at close range.

Formerly, the main tools I used to use for the ones that break through the AOE attacks were things like crystal spear and a combination of melee. At present, Abosolute Zero may turn out to be an extremely good spell for zigs as the catch-all to take out extremely tough enemies. Last but not least is dragon form which is not intuitive for a lot of people because they are just thinking about their standard defenses (which don't always apply). Dragon form is an excellent last line of defense, particularly when there's no other way to keep your mana up and you need a very strong general purpose buffer of health and potentially ridiculous close-range offensive that doesn't care about resists to finish mopping up.

Yeah there's a lot of other helpful spells, but I don't consider many besides the ones I listed to be vital spells. Aura of abjuration is excellent. Darkness can be good, but sometimes you actually just want to hit bigger piles (with ignition), so it's situational... Shatter isn't a bad spell to throw in the mix for some kinds of situations. Vile clutch still seems pretty strong to me.

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mathmaestro

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Monday, 11th May 2020, 02:00

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

Thanks for the tips! I had the same thoughts about dragon form, glad I'm not alone :)

I had considered bvc but wasn't sure that I would ever be able to spare the turns to cast it. It is a truly excellent spell, though.

Regarding ozocobu's for oofs - my understanding was that firestorm's irresistible damage was about equal to ozo's post-rC damage, so the numbers ended up being kind of a wash for oofs, although there are still other differences between the spells. Ozo's has the benefit of hitting all of los at the same time and only being level 6 (both make it more efficient), but the drawback of costing an extra 6 spell levels (and of course -potion though if there are lots of oofs on the screen I would be in lichform anyway, to avoid mutation).

You bring up a good point that I hadn't considered about Absolute Zero: if I could use positioning to take out key tough pan lords. I just keep thinking that I need to worry more about the situation of being surrounded by them, in which case shatter would likely be stronger. I absolutely love Aura of abjuration in my regular games, but is it really that beneficial given that I will have ignition, tornado, and possibly shatter? I figured the summons would just get blown away before they could ever become a problem.

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Monday, 11th May 2020, 05:56

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

mathmaestro wrote:Thanks for the tips! I had the same thoughts about dragon form, glad I'm not alone :)

I had considered bvc but wasn't sure that I would ever be able to spare the turns to cast it. It is a truly excellent spell, though.

Regarding ozocobu's for oofs - my understanding was that firestorm's irresistible damage was about equal to ozo's post-rC damage, so the numbers ended up being kind of a wash for oofs, although there are still other differences between the spells. Ozo's has the benefit of hitting all of los at the same time and only being level 6 (both make it more efficient), but the drawback of costing an extra 6 spell levels (and of course -potion though if there are lots of oofs on the screen I would be in lichform anyway, to avoid mutation).

You bring up a good point that I hadn't considered about Absolute Zero: if I could use positioning to take out key tough pan lords. I just keep thinking that I need to worry more about the situation of being surrounded by them, in which case shatter would likely be stronger. I absolutely love Aura of abjuration in my regular games, but is it really that beneficial given that I will have ignition, tornado, and possibly shatter? I figured the summons would just get blown away before they could ever become a problem.


I don't think ozocubu's is strictly required for oof levels. You can do it with firestorm. The pros are that ring of flames is a spellpower boost for firestorm that ice has no equivalent for, the leftover fire elementals buy you some time and block LOS just a tad. You called it on the cons of firestorm, it costs more mana (which really does matter), and it can't potentially hit as many at once. I would say given the increased damage of ozocubu's that it makes it into the nice to have spells category for zigs, but not utterly vital.

For the situation where you've spent your mana clearing a lot of the level out with AOE, but several pan lords have closed the gap to surround you (the situation you say you fear, which is a valid concern, it does happen), you're probably better off using a teleport scroll, or a combination of fog and blink (and teleport) to reset the fight or just get off the level. If you have a strong enough character that can melee well as well as cast, then a vorpal broadaxe could be your friend. The problem with holding on to shatter as your last line of defense spell as the response to getting surrounded by tough, surviving pan lords is that pan lords very frequently fly, so the won't take a lot of damage, and shatter is an AOE spell to begin with, so it's not exactly most appropriate for this problem. The best use of shatter is for a full screen application to mummy levels, specifically when you have a lot on screen, but they aren't bunched up enough for firestorm or ignition.

The reason you want aura of abjuration is that while sometimes enemy summons result in better strikes with spells like ignition (and you should use all advantages), there are other times when too many hostile monsters such as things which can cast hellfire on you start to pile up, or eyes that can paralyze you without an MR check. Dropping a nuke can be a good response, but spells which work over time, like tornado and aura of abjuration have a very useful utility about them, in that they can be used to buy you time to do other things while still covering your back for more than one turn (such as channeling mana, or quaffing potions).

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mathmaestro

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Tuesday, 12th May 2020, 13:08

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

Thanks, this is such great food for thought! Speaking of Ring of Flames, how would you rate that? Is it worth the slots, or would I be better off with item-based enhancers? I think based on the conversation so far my spell list would be:

- Aura of Abjuration
- Borgnjor's Revivification
- Controlled Blink
- Darkness
- Death's Door
- Fire Storm
- Ignition
- Necromutation
- Shatter
- Sublimation of Blood
- Tornado

Which is exactly 80 spell levels, so Dragon Form or Ozocubu's Refrigeration would require getting rid of one or more of the above. Not sure how to evaluate that :/

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Wednesday, 13th May 2020, 05:54

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

mathmaestro wrote:Thanks, this is such great food for thought! Speaking of Ring of Flames, how would you rate that? Is it worth the slots, or would I be better off with item-based enhancers? I think based on the conversation so far my spell list would be:

- Aura of Abjuration
- Borgnjor's Revivification
- Controlled Blink
- Darkness
- Death's Door
- Fire Storm
- Ignition
- Necromutation
- Shatter
- Sublimation of Blood
- Tornado

Which is exactly 80 spell levels, so Dragon Form or Ozocubu's Refrigeration would require getting rid of one or more of the above. Not sure how to evaluate that :/


Ring of flames makes it into my very highly desired list, for the fact that it enhances spellpower on firestorm and ignition, in addition to enhancers (it stacks). It's also in that category of spells that can kill stuff over a period of time without needing constant recasting. This functions well against situations of mana drain and silence. Of the spells above that I would personally drop, they are Borgnor's Revivication, Death's Door. If I needed further cuts, next would be Darkness and *maybe* sublimation of blood. Sublimation is pretty darn good, but it helps less on some of the very most dangerous levels where necromutation is very nice to have and you can't use it. Probably the best case for it is if you get an angels level, but really you'd be hard pressed to run out of all your mana using tornado to wipe one of those levels out. Even still, I've taken sub on zigs before, it's not a big cost at least. As for those big necromancy spells, there could be a lot of blowback for that recommendation to drop them, but I stand by it anyways. If I had to sum it up, my strategy is to take in a strong enough set/combo that you don't need iffy kinds of last-ditch save type spells, and those spells limit your options to proactively not need last-ditch spells.

If you want the toughest zig character, I think it's a demonspawn with very specific muts, stuff like torment resistance, augmentation, regen on kill, and the one that gives you mana (sorry can't remember all the names). The other combination with ridiculous long-term potential is an octopode, since it'll eventually have more effective equipment slots which have a possibility to more easily stack stats and resists to very high levels. Specifically, an Octopode can probably reach a higher level of INT than just about anything else, and get to a point to where one enhanced firestorm is enough to one-shot pretty much close to anything. Octopodes are more susceptible to silence though, since they can't wear normal armour and have necromutation up at the same time (they need statue form).

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Friday, 15th May 2020, 01:03

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

Okay, interesting. I can see giving up one of the 2 necromancy panic buttons; giving up both just feels so dangerous. I was also thinking that Darkness can be replaced by Cloak of the Thief, which would cost an equipment slot and -2 slaying but infinite evokable fog is so good that maybe I would want that thing on no matter what else I did. And of course that would give me 6 spell slots back as well.

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Saturday, 16th May 2020, 06:19

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

mathmaestro wrote:Okay, interesting. I can see giving up one of the 2 necromancy panic buttons; giving up both just feels so dangerous. I was also thinking that Darkness can be replaced by Cloak of the Thief, which would cost an equipment slot and -2 slaying but infinite evokable fog is so good that maybe I would want that thing on no matter what else I did. And of course that would give me 6 spell slots back as well.


I haven't tried to balance a set since absolute zero came out, just starting from scratch, I think this is what I'd probably try rolling with today. It's questionable if I would continue to keep crystal spear with absolute zero in the set, but I'm loathe to give it up without play-testing because of it's potential for emergency directed damage at a more specific target than abs zero could choose.

9 Fire Storm
9 Tornado
9 Shatter
9 Absolute Zero +36
8 Ignition
8 Necromutation
8 Crystal Spear +60
7 Ring of flames +67
6 Ozocubu's +73
5 - Aura of Abjuration +78
2 - Blink +80

My first choice for drops to get other spells instead would be
1) Shatter, because it's just a bit too redundant with Ignition and Ozucubu's. It's nice, but we can get that job done in other ways.
2) Crystal Spear, as I said before, it might be reasonable to phase it out and rely solely on absolute zero for emergency kills and mop-up.

If I were to give up either of those two spells for 8, or 9 points, I would take dragon form and maybe summon butterflies or apportation.
A few other noteworthy spells if I were to free up 0-17 points and tinker with them might be orb of destruction, lesser beckoning (really great spell), air strike (maybe, if it is actually hitting a lot harder than before), song of slaying (if I were doing a lot of axe warfare), sublimation..I'd probably have to think on it some more to give a final list of runner-ups.

Controlled blink doesn't always work (last I recall), so rather than include it in your set and begin to rely upon it, you're better off not having it (ever really) and instead focusing on learning how to get by with other combinations. Your primary tools for escape are fog+ regular old blink, control what you see in LOS and impact your odds of what blink will take you to.. and teleport scrolls, even though they aren't guaranteed to take you anywhere in particular. Some people swear by the portal spell and I would guess it's pretty good if you're practiced with it, I just never used it much myself. Just play the odds with a bit of a buffer in case the odds aren't kind. For the times you can use a controlled blink, and it would be useful, you should have plenty of blink scrolls if you play from a position of strength normally. They should be enough to cover you that you don't need to spend points of Controlled Blink. (by the way, this philosophy about controlled blink applies to the regular game as well as zigs).

I think a cloak of fog is a fine alternative to heavy spending on darkness. You also find a lot of fog scrolls doing zigs, and when you need cover, you need deep cover. Fog scrolls can provide better cover than darkness. On the other hand, when you don't want a lot of cover is when you're nuking a whole screen with spells like ignition. Darkness wouldn't play such a great role for those times. One main strategy for extra hard levels is to sneak just to the border of where the enemies are, and then even though it may sound nuts, actually blink in close to them so you can get a really devastating AOE hit in, combined with tornado from their inner ranks. Darkness is good, and I won't go so far as to not recommend it, but my priorities are above and it doesn't fit.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Saturday, 16th May 2020, 13:50

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

When doesn't controlled blink work? (Besides Zot & Orbrun?)

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 01:09

Post Friday, 22nd May 2020, 03:23

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

As far as species go, I have my heart set on doing this project with a Naga. Mainly for personal reasons, although they are reasonably strong once they get to that level. Of course a properly leveled Ds would be best but I can't bring myself to farm the right mutations.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 224

Joined: Monday, 19th November 2012, 04:56

Post Sunday, 24th May 2020, 17:02

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

Just bringing it up for consideration since I haven't seen anyone mention it yet - Qazlal's disaster area is probably the single most destructive action in the game for the purposes of megazigging. It unfortunately takes up the God slot which is often used for HP or MP Regen, but it was absolutely ruinous when I got it on a powered by death Ds.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 13

Joined: Saturday, 27th July 2019, 20:50

Post Monday, 29th March 2021, 14:43

Re: best zig spells in 0.25?

Just a quick note about "being surrounded by pan lords". What in the heck are you doing fighting out in the open? For panlords it's vital to stick yourself in the corner, put on your -tele ring and sit there a kill them as they come in. only 3 can get near you at a time.

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