Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 23

Joined: Saturday, 22nd June 2013, 12:48

Post Saturday, 2nd May 2020, 15:47

Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

I've just had another YASD in the Tomb. I thought I was well-prepared with over 10 heal wounds potions, 17 teleport scrolls and rN+++. But no. My strategy for level 3 was to read scrolls of immolation and holy word to kill many mummies at once. Which caused me to "accidentally" kill about 6 mummies at once and their death curses of about 20-25 damage inflicted over 120 damage in total.

The only time I've defeated the Tomb was as a DEWz casting fire storm at everything while being a lich.

How do a melee char do it?

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2169

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Saturday, 2nd May 2020, 16:38

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Makhleb or TSO gives you healing on kills, so you don't just die if you blow up a lot of mummies. Alternatively, Kiku blocks death curses and reduces torment.

What I like to do is fight on the upstairs, buff up with everything and use fog to limit the number of mummies in sight (and if needed: go back up and restart).
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Saturday, 2nd May 2020, 19:09

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Magipi's god options do work, but if you want something more generic, darkness + silence is a strong option for any extended melee character in tomb.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Blades Runner

Posts: 562

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2020, 07:55

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Yes.

The suggestions given so far are fine, but I'll just add that going with TSO is so much far superior to darkness+silence, because those are still spells and weigh in against your XP and how heavy your armour can be, etc. You're simply better off just using TSO's invocations for holy blasts than using any spells. Silence can be sort of dangerous since it'll limit your escape options (teleport/blink). You could pull it off with those spells, it's just harder.

If you're only on the edge of being able to handle the third level of the tomb, the thing you need to do is stair dance. They made stair dancing in tomb a bit harder, but really it just amounts to needing to have a few extra blink scrolls in reserve. So, two of the best strategies were already listed. Beyond that, what I could offer is that when you come down the stairs to level 3, use a normal blink spell (which is a good spell even for pure melee) to push you forward towards the doors (which is a statistical probability since you're near a wall), then get one of the doors open, and just fight around it, keeping the stairs down in blink sight and range in case you need to bail, charge back up again, and start over. I suppose you could also sit on the upstairs, but I think you get some advantages fighting just around the corner of the doorway.
Last edited by svendre on Monday, 4th May 2020, 04:05, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2020, 12:06

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Good to be reminded of the uselessness of posting in this subforum.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

For this message the author tealizard has received thanks:
duvessa
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 405

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2020, 16:02

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

bjourne wrote:I've just had another YASD in the Tomb. I thought I was well-prepared with over 10 heal wounds potions, 17 teleport scrolls and rN+++. But no. My strategy for level 3 was to read scrolls of immolation and holy word to kill many mummies at once. Which caused me to "accidentally" kill about 6 mummies at once and their death curses of about 20-25 damage inflicted over 120 damage in total.

The only time I've defeated the Tomb was as a DEWz casting fire storm at everything while being a lich.

How do a melee char do it?


If your worst problem in W:3 can be boiled down to damage from torment and direct hits from curses, you can resolve this in a simple way. Quaffing a lignification potion gives your char additional HP, and rN ∞ which blocks all negative damage, torment, and -Flay. It will also root your char in place, so the dispersal traps and associated BS is also rendered moot. Combine this with some way of blasting your LOS with insane amounts of damage and you're very much done. I would also recommend that you use a haste potion, the Slow from curses can be quite annoying.

Immolation and evokables are more than up to this, as are divine powers like Disaster area. A relatively cheap spell that can also help is Aura of abjuration, a lot of summons from both mummies and curse backlash will clutter your LOS and soak up damage meant for other targets. That's pretty much it, good luck!
There is always something new to learn.

For this message the author Sorcerous has received thanks:
Turukano

Blades Runner

Posts: 584

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2020, 18:34

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Pure melee with generic god is rough. But you have the XP to train SOMETHING. Any of these help a lot:

- Lich form: probably the only time this feels worth using outside of zigs, 100% torment immunity on tap.
- Lignification: tree form makes you a plant, and plants are also immune to torment. Works better with TSO/Makhleb (you can usually clear entirety of W:3 in one go with TSO + lig + some potions), but still relevant without TSO/Makhleb. Having potions of cancellation to get out of it when needed is recommended.
- Throwing: Used extensively in this run, and Tomb was no exception: https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... 024000.txt. Rip controlled blink...that was TOTALLY needed to remove from the game, derp. Couldn't have people progressing quickly in extended w/o crutching on particular gods.
- Darkness + silence is okay, but you have to be very careful with it in tomb. Getting caught unable to use scrolls and magic can end poorly if you're even a little impatient and something draws attention from outside the cone of silence. What really screws this up is bad alarm trap placement though. Death scarab tendency to flop all over the place means that even having an alarm trap on screen creates a risk of having the whole purpose of the combo ruined. If you have means to prevent that, you can gradually work through W:3.
- Fog is generic good for anybody in Tomb, no reason to allow massed summons/torment/smite at a distance you can't do anything back.
- You can still scum abyss for blink scrolls to replace cblink. "Enjoy" this nice incentive as a melee character :/. Alternatively, PoG is still useful too.
- Dithmenos also can grant torment immunity with shadow form, which can be overlooked as an option in extended.

If you're worshipping Trog in extended you're basically just asking for tedium. But you can store a stack of blink scrolls + lig/cancel/fog/other consumables, throw javelins + immolate and it will work. If you have evocable blink or aren't with Trog farm a bunch of nets, mummies waste a lot of turns getting out of those when you have 1v1 situations.

I don't like the design of multi-entry into W:2. I was double-paralyzed and killed before getting a move after clearing W:1 hallway and going into a side area of W:2, which is an example of the very rare BS late game death. 100 --> 0 from chain paralysis without getting a move on the floor is very unlikely, but it should probably still be sanity checked. Other sources of paralysis don't allow chaining it IIRC.

Blades Runner

Posts: 562

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 04:08

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

tealizard wrote:Good to be reminded of the uselessness of posting in this subforum.


I didn't need this reminder of a useless posting, but thanks anyhow.

For this message the author svendre has received thanks: 2
nago, Nebukadnezar

vt

Halls Hopper

Posts: 79

Joined: Saturday, 7th December 2019, 17:58

Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 04:23

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

TheMeInTeam wrote:I don't like the design of multi-entry into W:2. I was double-paralyzed and killed before getting a move after clearing W:1 hallway and going into a side area of W:2, which is an example of the very rare BS late game death. 100 --> 0 from chain paralysis without getting a move on the floor is very unlikely, but it should probably still be sanity checked. Other sources of paralysis don't allow chaining it IIRC.


Wow! Chain paralysis to death as soon as you enter the floor, without even getting one move, that really is unlucky. It's a particularly interesting coincidence given that you recently claimed (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26834) that this happened to you in this game (https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... 221300.txt) and it turned out to be a very rare example of BS on this forum. I don't suppose you have the morgue for this death?

For this message the author vt has received thanks:
duvessa

Blades Runner

Posts: 584

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 05:27

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

vt wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:I don't like the design of multi-entry into W:2. I was double-paralyzed and killed before getting a move after clearing W:1 hallway and going into a side area of W:2, which is an example of the very rare BS late game death. 100 --> 0 from chain paralysis without getting a move on the floor is very unlikely, but it should probably still be sanity checked. Other sources of paralysis don't allow chaining it IIRC.


Wow! Chain paralysis to death as soon as you enter the floor, without even getting one move, that really is unlucky. It's a particularly interesting coincidence given that you recently claimed (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26834) that this happened to you in this game (https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... 221300.txt) and it turned out to be a very rare example of BS on this forum. I don't suppose you have the morgue for this death?


It's odd to post evidence against yourself in the same post you make the claim. From that morgue:

Spoiler: show
You slide downwards. The hatch slams shut behind you.
A guardian mummy, 3 mummy priests and an ancient champion come into view.
The ancient champion is wielding a +1 great mace of pain.
The ancient champion casts a spell.
The ancient champion seems to speed up.
The mummy priest mumbles some strange prayers to its god.
Found a one-way staircase leading up.
You hear a loud "Zot"!
The mummy priest invokes the aid of its god against you.
Something smites you!
The mummy priest calls on the powers of darkness!
Your body is wracked with pain! The mummy priest drops a net on you.
A net drops to the ground!
The neqoxec gestures at you.
You feel dopey.
Something feeds on your intellect!
You see here a throwing net.
The power of Zot is invoked against you!
You suddenly lose the ability to move!
The ancient champion gestures at you while chanting.
The iron shot hits you but does no damage.
A guardian mummy comes into view. It is wielding a +0 flail.
The mummy priest calls down the wrath of its god upon you.
Something smites you! The mummy priest hits you!
The mummy priest invokes the aid of its god against you.
Something smites you!
You hear a loud "Zot"! x2
The mummy priest prays to its god.
You see a puff of smoke. The mummy priest completely misses you.
A mummy comes into view.
The mummy priest calls on the powers of darkness!
Your body is wracked with pain!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
A guardian mummy comes into view.
You hear a screech!
You hear a loud "Zot"!
A bennu comes into view.
The guardian mummy hits you but does no damage.
The mummy priest hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The flayed ghost cries, "Feel what I felt!"
Terrible wounds open up all over your body!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The ancient champion hits you but does no damage.
You writhe in agony.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The mummy priest hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The neqoxec gestures.
You see a puff of smoke. The guardian mummy barely misses you.
The power of Zot is invoked against you!
You suddenly lose the ability to move!
The ancient champion casts a spell at you.
You resist with almost no effort.
The mummy priest utters an invocation to its god.
You hear a loud "Zot"!
The mummy priest prays to its god.
You see a puff of smoke.
The guardian mummy hits you but does no damage.
The power of Zot is invoked against you!
An unnatural silence engulfs you.
The ancient champion hits you with a +1 great mace of pain.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You writhe in agony.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
The mummy priest hits you but does no damage.
The ancient champion hits you with a +1 great mace of pain.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You writhe in agony.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The mummy priest barely misses you.
The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
The guardian mummy hits you but does no damage.
The crimson imp blinks!
The ancient champion barely misses you.
The neqoxec gestures.
You see a puff of smoke. x2
The power of Zot is invoked against you!
A ball of electricity appears!
The mummy priest hits you but does no damage. x2
The mummy priest hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The crimson imp barely misses you.
A ball lightning comes into view.
The ball lightning explodes!
The blast of lightning engulfs the mummy priest.
The mummy priest resists. The blast of lightning engulfs you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The blast of lightning engulfs the guardian mummy!
The blast of lightning engulfs the crimson imp.
The blast of lightning engulfs the alligator zombie.
The ancient champion hits you but does no damage.
The guardian mummy hits you but does no damage.
The bennu pecks you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The bennu claws you but does no damage. x2; The mummy priest hits you!
The Shining One protects you from harm!
The mummy priest hits you!!
You die...


If you read carefully, you might notice that there are, in fact, two instance of Zot paralysis in the text above. Despite claims to the contrary the first time I posted this.

Show me one player action taken in this sequence after "you slide downwards". I admit it's possible I moved to blink and don't recall taking that step. Does that actually change the threat or the warning of risk? Getting 100 --> 0'd from something moving from offscreen onto a Zot trap isn't actually better than getting 100 --> 0'd downstairs. If anything, that suggests this threat is larger than I initially advertised.

It also doesn't refute the central issue of forcing the vast majority of builds to enter into stairs w/o grace. You gave a few alternatives to shatter in the other thread, but these all have a similar feel to "just play Jivya every game to remove bad mutations". Might as well grind shatter after all at that point. Rando teleporting into W:1 hallways could do the same thing as entering a floor 2nd time, so it's not a solution. Without some option to control LoS to traps and/or control monster movement, you can just be 1-shot w/o counterplay. Even Zot:5's nonsense is much less likely to do that.

vt

Halls Hopper

Posts: 79

Joined: Saturday, 7th December 2019, 17:58

Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 07:27

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

If you read carefully, you might notice that there are, in fact, two instance of Zot paralysis in the text above.


If you read carefully, you might notice that I did not contest that, in this thread or the linked thread.

Show me one player action taken in this sequence after "you slide downwards".


The morgue shows that you did not die where you landed and the ttyrec plainly shows that you walked twice northeast (walking does not show up in the message log).

Getting 100 --> 0'd from something moving from offscreen onto a Zot trap isn't actually better than getting 100 --> 0'd downstairs.


That didn't happen either. You could see both the Zot trap that paralyzed you (the first time) and the ancient champion that stepped on it from the time you landed to your last position. It was extremely predictable that that monster was going to step on that trap if you walked like that.

Does that actually change the threat or the warning of risk?


You misunderstand. I'm not arguing with you about the balance of Tomb. I'm calling you out for being full of it.

For this message the author vt has received thanks:
duvessa

Blades Runner

Posts: 584

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 07:56

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

I was not intentionally lying. The sequence is different from what I recall even now. But when faced with the evidence I won't deny reality, even if I feel like a classic example of the reason eye witnesses are often bad and that feeling sucks.

That said, the result is not fairly described as "predictable". Considering I did made that move, I must have done so under the assumption that chaining paralysis was not possible (noting my complaint in previous posts emphasized that specifically), which I was given to believe. That assumption obviously leads to an incorrect threat assessment, which is one of the most common reasons anybody dies in crawl. Had the assumption "you get a little time between paralysis" been correct, that's probably a won game. I took a lot of beating before dying during 2nd para, and could have taken more with functional SH/EV.

And it's not like I had no reason for this assumption: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Paralysis so despite my mistaken recollection this is still a real + spoiler threat that should be pointed out for others doing tomb.

Or if one doesn't like the wiki, here's a typed response from seam:

Spoiler: show
seam: paralyse (1/1): A monster spell, wand effect, and needle brand that deprives the victim of action for a few turns. Performed by a wizard, floating eye, great orb of eyes, sphinx, lich, ancient lich, ogre mage, vampire knight, deep elf mage, orc sorcerer, grinder, rupert, ereshkigal, norris, erolcha, and anyone who picks up the wand.


Seam also claims that all sources are blocked by stasis, which is also in the wiki page but is news to me. Guess I don't play formicid enough.

To circle this back into the OP topic a bit, this is something that very much needs to be on a melee fighter's radar, since most melee builds won't have lugonu corruption, fedhas, or shatter to open walls and control zot trap steps. The most straightforward options for melee (TSO, Zin, Makhleb, Kiku) all offer minimal or no protection against this.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5358

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 5th May 2020, 18:01

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Usefulness of posting in this subform aside (wink wink), I usually cleared Tomb with Statue form. This was pretty easy before the removal of stairs, but the lack of stairdancing now makes it significantly harder to do this. Nowadays I generally recommend having 3-4 scrolls of blinking, or else you might want to skip tomb. Sure it's possible to do without scrolls, but I don't consider it very safe in the general case (Meaning without specific gods, undead race, etc).

It's worth mentioning that by the time you are talking about an area like tomb, that "melee fighter" should probably have spells, so suggestions like statue form/darkness/passage are things you should be considering. Lich form is usually too much of an investment on melee characters so I don't recommend it, although I suppose it's technically possible. A much better level 8 spell would be controlled blink, but that's both a huge investment and hard to find.

I assume that if you make it to tomb that you have some method of dealing damage, so your offense is probably covered. The main thing you have to prioritize is being able to reach the upstairs quickly. Try to reach them before you are in *need* of reaching them, you can always fight on top of them if you still have health remaining. It usually takes me 2-3 entrances to tomb:3 before the floor is empty enough to stay there and rest.

It's always possible to random teleport in an emergency but your odds of ending up worse off are fairly significant. This is usually a last resort.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 23

Joined: Saturday, 22nd June 2013, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 5th May 2020, 23:38

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Good advice! I'll try the lignification strategy next time. On my char I didn't have necromut otherwise I would have used that.

For this message the author bjourne has received thanks:
tealizard

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 10th December 2016, 15:38

Post Friday, 8th May 2020, 17:15

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Out of my only two 15 rune wins, both have been melee characters.
One was Deep Dwarf with Makhleb. Obviously, Makhlebs main thing is health gain on kills. It's super useful.
The other was a Minotaur with TSO. Both gods give strong summoned allies. TSO has a nice AoE ability.

Also, I never went full melee. Having a throwing skill is super useful because 1) you can do damage as enemies are approaching you, and 2) you can more easily stay back and limit the amount enemies you trigger at any given point.
If you find a good fustibalus, it might be useful switching to slings instead of throwing.

Also, evocations. Wands have saved my noob ass numerous times.

Blades Runner

Posts: 562

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Saturday, 9th May 2020, 20:59

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

Though I haven't analyzed them closely, I feel like the new earth evocable, tremor stones (?) can't remember the name -- open up the door for melee characters to help clear tomb without needing big spells. Kind of like a poor man's shatter, at least enough to trigger immolation scrolls.

Zot traps and teleport spells are indeed dangerous. Sometimes you can counter or predict them, sometimes you can't. Actually it's not Zot traps so much as it is paralysis that I think is the worst mechanism in the game currently.

In the quest to make the miscasts more meaningful, and after removing -Tele off artefacts, to counter the teleport traps, you can now intentionally force a miscast so that you get -Tele status before you go downstairs. I'm pretty sure someone will see this and not like it. Oh well!

For this message the author svendre has received thanks:
TheMeInTeam

Slime Squisher

Posts: 333

Joined: Monday, 12th September 2016, 16:25

Post Sunday, 10th May 2020, 00:17

Re: Can a melee fighter defeat the Tomb?

I've done it once as a ghoul of Makhleb, but if you're immune to torment and heal on kills you can get away with punching mummies.
Ascension reports with too many words since 2016.

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.