TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 809

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Wednesday, 29th January 2020, 22:47

TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Guys,

I have an OpFi going at the moment that has a couple of annoying mutations (6 negative, non species innate mutations including deterioration 2)

I only have 1 potion of mutation left in the game. I've cleared most stuff except zot:2 onwards and hells/pan/tomb.

Converting to Zin for extended is not an option as I'm relying on Statue form. I'd like to go for 15 runes really, Go hard or go home attitude!

Would the following work:

Scum abyss for more potions of mutation (or somewhere else if there is a better place to look?)
Convert to Zin
Buy my way to full piety
Cleanse mutation potions
Convert back to TSO and use hells/pan to build back to full piety and snag those runes in the process
Drink mutation potions at leisure to cure current bad mutations and any more that occur

I guess the core questions are:

Is it as simple as converting to Zin, paying a toll and cleansing my mut pots, then converting back to TSO?
Do cleansed mut pots continue to function as "cure bad mutations only" potions if I leave Zin, or do I have to still be with Zin for them to function?
Is there any way to calculate how much gold to buy full piety? I have 5700 gold and have collected 11k in total.
Is there some tactic I don't know about that yields more potions of mutation? I've only encountered 3 all game.

Abridged character dump:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.24.0-123-gd5b16e6ec5 (webtiles) character file.

Delarado the Bringer of Light (Octopode Fighter)  Turns: 104198, Time: 11:15:11

Health: 205/205    AC: 12    Str: 53    XL:     27
Magic:  39/39      EV: 39    Int: 25    God:    the Shining One [******]
Gold:   5313       SH: 24    Dex: 15    Spells: 4/50 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .     - Unarmed
rCold    + + .     Gourm    .   B - +3 shield of Zirph {rF- MR+ Str+4 Slay+5}
rNeg     + + +     Faith    .   v - +3 hat of the Fifty Wonders {+Inv Str+8}
rPois    +         Spirit   .   p - amulet "Giqa" {+Fly rC+ Regen+ Str-4 Int+2}
rElec    +         Reflect  .   P - ring "Noycwyiw" {*Drain +Blink rPois EV+5 Str+7}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   J - ring of the Philosopher {MR+ Str+7 Dex+4}
MR       ++++.                  I - ring of Robustness {AC+8}
Stlth    ++........             D - +4 ring of intelligence
HPRegen  1.24/turn              U - ring of protection from fire
MPRegen  0.26/turn              r - +6 ring of evasion
                                e - ring "Emicw" {+Inv rElec rC+ Str+8 Dex-2}
                                s - +5 ring of intelligence

@: glowing, studying 2 skills
A: almost no armour, stealthy swim, amphibious, 8 rings, constrict 8, large bone
plates 1, camouflage 1, clumsy 1, deterioration 2, sense surroundings 1,
regeneration 1, strong 1, gelatinous body 1
}: 5/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver, abyssal
a: Divine Shield, Cleansing Flame, Summon Divine Warrior, Brand Weapon With Holy
Wrath, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink, Evoke Invisibility, Evoke Flight


You are on level 2 of the Realm of Zot.
You worship the Shining One.
The Shining One is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 13 branches of the dungeon, and seen 56 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have also visited: Trove, Ossuary and Ice Cave.

You have collected 11093 gold pieces.
You have spent 5780 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Missiles
 y - 63 javelins (quivered)
 z - 6 silver javelins
Armour
 v - the +3 hat of the Fifty Wonders (worn) {+Inv Str+8}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Shoals)   
   
   It affects your strength (+8).
   It lets you turn invisible.
 B - the +3 shield of Zirph (worn) {rF- MR+ Str+4 Slay+5}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+5).
   It makes you vulnerable to fire.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 W - the +5 shield "Luloitarr" {Regen+}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 X - +0 storm dragon scales
Jewellery
 e - the ring "Emicw" (on tentacle) {+Inv rElec rC+ Str+8 Dex-2}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your strength (+8).
   It affects your dexterity (-2).
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 p - the amulet "Giqa" (around mantle) {+Fly rC+ Regen+ Str-4 Int+2}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It affects your strength (-4).
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It protects you from cold.
   It lets you fly.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 r - a +6 ring of evasion (on tentacle)
 s - a +5 ring of intelligence (on tentacle)
 x - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 D - a +4 ring of intelligence (on tentacle)
 H - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 I - the ring of Robustness (on tentacle) {AC+8}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   
   It affects your AC (+8).
 J - the ring of the Philosopher (right tentacle) {MR+ Str+7 Dex+4}
   (You took it off a deep elf blademaster on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [ring of protection from magic]
   
   It affects your strength (+7).
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 P - the ring "Noycwyiw" (left tentacle) {*Drain +Blink rPois EV+5 Str+7}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Depths)   
   
   [ring of evasion]
   
   It affects your evasion (+5).
   It affects your strength (+7).
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you blink.
   It causes draining when unequipped.
 U - a ring of protection from fire (on tentacle)
 V - the amulet "Cofeote" {RegenMP rF+ MR++ Int+4}
   (You took it off a vampire knight on level 3 of the Crypt)   
   
   [amulet of magic regeneration]
   
   It increases your magic regeneration.
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It protects you from fire.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Wands
 j - a wand of enslavement (11)
 k - a wand of acid (25)
 m - a wand of polymorph (32)
 E - a wand of digging (11)
 L - a wand of scattershot (6)
 Z - a wand of paralysis (4)
Scrolls
 g - 25 scrolls of remove curse
 l - a scroll of holy word
 n - 4 scrolls of summoning
 o - a scroll of teleportation
 q - 5 scrolls of fog
 w - 13 scrolls of blinking
 C - 3 scrolls of silence
 N - 6 scrolls of magic mapping
 Q - 16 scrolls of identify
 S - 2 scrolls of vulnerability
Potions
 a - 4 potions of ambrosia
 b - 8 potions of might
 d - 4 potions of cancellation
 h - 28 potions of curing
 i - 4 potions of resistance
 u - 6 potions of lignification
 G - a potion of mutation
 K - 10 potions of haste
 M - 5 potions of agility
 O - 9 potions of brilliance
 R - 11 potions of heal wounds
 T - 6 potions of magic
 Y - a potion of flight
Books
 t - a manual of Shields
 F - a manual of Translocations
Miscellaneous
 A - a box of beasts
Comestibles
 c - 38 rations


   Skills:
 - Level 21.0 Fighting
 + Level 9.4 Throwing
 - Level 19.9 Dodging
 - Level 10.0 Stealth
 - Level 15.0 Shields
 - Level 19.5 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 12.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 3.0 Conjurations
 - Level 3.0 Hexes
 - Level 2.1 Charms
 - Level 6.1 Summonings
   Level 6.2 Necromancy
 + Level 12.0 Translocations
 - Level 17.1 Transmutations
 - Level 6.0 Air Magic
 - Level 12.6 Earth Magic
 - Level 21.6 Invocations
 - Level 11.3 Evocations


You have 4 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sticks to Snakes      Tmut           #######.     0%          2    None
b - Apportation           Tloc           ######       1%          1    None
c - Beastly Appendage     Tmut           ######       0%          1    None
d - Statue Form           Tmut/Erth      ######...    1%          6    #####..
e - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
f - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      ######..     0%          2    None
g - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #####...     1%          2    None
h - Summon Butterflies    Summ           #####...     1%          1    None
i - Dragon Form           Tmut           #######...   3%          7    ######.
j - Irradiate             Conj/Tmut      ######....   1%          5    ###....
k - Yara's Violent Unrav  Hex/Tmut       ######....   1%          5    ###....
l - Song of Slaying       Chrm           ####....     2%          2    None
m - Lesser Beckoning      Tloc           ######....   1%          3    None
n - Portal Projectile     Hex/Tloc       ######       1%          3    None
o - Summon Lightning Spi  Summ/Air       #####...     3%          4    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:7            Lair (6/6) D:10
 Shoals (4/4) Lair:2        Snake (4/4) Lair:3        Slime (5/5) Lair:5
    Orc (2/2) D:10            Elf (3/3) Orc:2        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:3       Tomb (0/3) Crypt:3      Depths (5/5) D:15
   Hell (visited)             Dis (0/7) Hell            Geh (0/7) Hell
    Coc (0/7) Hell            Tar (0/7) Hell            Zot (2/5) Depths:5
Ossuary (visited)           IceCv (visited)         

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:4 =   Orc:2 !(%?[   Elf:1 }   Elf:3 :   Shoals:1 ?   Shoals:3 *
Snake:1 (   Vaults:5 *   Depths:1 ==}   Depths:4 *

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:4 Depths:5
Pandemonium: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:5
Ziggurat: Depths:2

Annotations:
Lair:1 1 exclusion


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot wear most types of armour.
You are very stealthy in the water. (Stealth+)
You are amphibious.
You can wear up to eight rings at the same time.
You can use your tentacles to constrict eight enemies at once.
Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth+).
Your rubbery body absorbs attacks. (AC +1, EV +1)
You are partially covered in large bone plates. (SH +4)
You are clumsy. (Dex -2)
Your body often deteriorates upon taking damage.
You passively map a small area around you.
Your natural rate of healing is unusually fast.
Your muscles are strong. (Str +2)

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Wednesday, 29th January 2020, 22:54

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Firstly, after paying your money to Zin, you have to wait a while before you're up to fill piety. I don't know whether this is turncount gated, xp gated, or exploration gated.
Secondly, mutation potions are only cleanst whilst you have full Zin piety. If you leave Zin, go back down to 5 star piety, or fall under wrath, mutation potions function as normal. You don't permanently transform your potions into a different type.
Thirdly, I'd probably scum the abyss whilst under Zin, of I were going with your plan. Zin provided more benefit in the abyss, and if you can't survive the abyss without statueform you shouldn't be scumming there.

For this message the author petercordia has received thanks:
delarado

Snake Sneak

Posts: 124

Joined: Monday, 14th March 2011, 11:14

Post Thursday, 30th January 2020, 08:10

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

If Zin is so terrible, why not go Jivya? ;-)

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 809

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Thursday, 30th January 2020, 09:18

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Interesting idea, I'd never even looked at Jivya as a god choice.

Two issues:

-You gain negative mutations upon leaving
-I murdered TRJ

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Thursday, 30th January 2020, 14:01

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

At least with Zin you can block new mutations, so you can scum for pots w/o making the problem worse. OP with large shield is pretty solid so you can definitely get through most things with Zin, including abyss.

The mut game is pretty bad, I wish it got more attention than randomly removing spells because it's more cancerous and contributes to making extended in particular more unfun than it otherwise would be. You can't always block malmuters (especially in places like Mnoleg's domain), but you usually can. There's basically nothing you can do about hell contam once you're out of cancellation potions though.

At least you don't have anything terrible like teleportitis or berserkitis, and your stats are high enough that degenerating them on damage sometimes won't put you at risk of stacking with hell effects to take you stat 0, probably.

The last option is to run zigs for mut potions, but there are obvious reasons that might not work out.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 124

Joined: Monday, 14th March 2011, 11:14

Post Thursday, 30th January 2020, 14:50

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

delarado wrote:Interesting idea, I'd never even looked at Jivya as a god choice.

Come on! You're playing an octopode!! Assuming the wiki is correct, you can only gain from mutations that could inconvenience other characters. So what if you get talons or hooves. Horns might cause you to lose your dear hat. Armor fits poorly? Hah.

Two issues:

-You gain negative mutations upon leaving

Only happens if you leave. Jiyva might be okay for extended? Eyes become neutral so no eyes of draining. You get free rCorr. You get random mutations so it's like extra equipment in a way. Convert dangerous enemies to slimes. Cure bad mutations. You spawn bodyguards when hurt, at max piety.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 809

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Thursday, 30th January 2020, 15:02

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Jivya is definitely something I'll look at in future, but not an option this game because I've already killed TRJ which the Wiki says makes Jivya unavailable.

Perhaps my next OP will be of Jivya though. I am enjoying playing OP's as of late!

For this message the author delarado has received thanks:
mopl

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2173

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 05:37

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see those terrible mutations. Degeneration is nothing, clumsy 1 is nothing, the others are good.

For this message the author Magipi has received thanks: 5
b0rsuk, duvessa, mopl, nago, petercordia

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 809

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 12:07

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Yeah, I just hate mutations, and panicked a bit at degeneration 2.

Only have 1 mut pot left with plenty of mutations possible. Currently scumming abyss for more mut potions but its getting old quick.

Wanted to finish 15 runes with TSO, but Zin's mutation protection is really good, and I hear his abilities are amazing (Although I've yet to use any yet)

I'm toying with the idea of doing Zin throughout extended, but I worry about not being able to use statue form / dragon form.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 124

Joined: Monday, 14th March 2011, 11:14

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 12:32

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Note degeneration only triggers when you get hit, and a stealthy, dodging, shield-bearing octopode very rarely gets hit. The effect is temporary anyway, as you gain experience your body recovers.

In my 3 rune games, I usually don't have a single mutation until orbs of fire. Either I got better at avoiding them despite the removal of the amulet of resist mutation, or they've become rarer.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 809

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 13:42

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

Do you do Slime?

A single shining eye gave me Berserkitis, clumsy 1, frail 1 and low mp1 in a couple of turns despite me using summon butterflies to block LOS.

I had to use 2/3 mut pots to get rid of berserkitis, and then an OOF gave me deterioration 2 on zot:2.
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 1949

Joined: Monday, 18th February 2013, 07:59

Location: France

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 15:16

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

delarado wrote:Do you do Slime?

A single shining eye gave me Berserkitis, clumsy 1, frail 1 and low mp1 in a couple of turns despite me using summon butterflies to block LOS.

I had to use 2/3 mut pots to get rid of berserkitis, and then an OOF gave me deterioration 2 on zot:2.
I do Slime in 90% of my games. With most melee brutes, I kill them with Throwing asap and usually don't get too badly mutated. Just don't move a lot while in LoS.

The ways I block LoS usually :
  • Hide behind other jellies
  • Summon Lightning Spire, paired with PProj
  • ?summoning
  • Phial of floods
Online stats
Fastest Hell runes (enter Hell branch -> get the rune)
Icy : 56 / Iron : 126 / Obsidian : 215 / Bone : 125

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 17:02

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

delarado wrote:Do you do Slime?

A single shining eye gave me Berserkitis, clumsy 1, frail 1 and low mp1 in a couple of turns despite me using summon butterflies to block LOS.

I had to use 2/3 mut pots to get rid of berserkitis, and then an OOF gave me deterioration 2 on zot:2.


You really want a way to block LoS from shining eyes consistently or to have good throwing + silver weapon if you're not undead/immune to muts. Lightning spire is the classic means, but other chump blocks work too.

To me the worst is when some random orc sorceror summons a malmuter or similar. Often there's little time to react to this beyond just killing the summoner ASAP, but it only takes 1-2 turns of malmute risk to give you something really bad if you're unlucky. Another place to get screwed is abyss, especially if you're sent there underleveled and can't simply kill the malmuters easily yet.

Other than that, OOF and hell are the most common ways to get cancerous malmutes. OOF are fortunately at least near the end of the game, and only teleportitis into zot lungs is really BS. Malmutes make extended more of a chore, however, and there aren't enough cancellation pots in a game to offset hell contam procs so you're going to get screwed there in some capacity if you don't have a lot of mut pots, Zin, or Jivya.
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 1949

Joined: Monday, 18th February 2013, 07:59

Location: France

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 18:09

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

TheMeInTeam wrote:Other than that, OOF and hell are the most common ways to get cancerous malmutes. OOF are fortunately at least near the end of the game, and only teleportitis into zot lungs is really BS. Malmutes make extended more of a chore, however, and there aren't enough cancellation pots in a game to offset hell contam procs so you're going to get screwed there in some capacity if you don't have a lot of mut pots, Zin, or Jivya.
I think I was only malmutated in Hell only very few times, just because I usually stay there for a short duration.
It's often in Mnoleg realm that I have the hardest time, because you cannot block every LoS at a time.

For OoF, they're indeed late enough not to care about mutations you get there.
Online stats
Fastest Hell runes (enter Hell branch -> get the rune)
Icy : 56 / Iron : 126 / Obsidian : 215 / Bone : 125

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 18:50

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

How much you get contam-proc'd in hell depends on what god you're using. Zin doesn't care, and picks like Makhleb and TSO spend a lot less time than others because they heal on kill. I guess Kiku and Sif Muna give you lich form guaranteed, if you're willing to actually train that. The others might force a lot of vestibule back-tracking and increase risk of exposure.

OOF are MOSTLY late enough to not care. If you don't have -tele getting teleportitis before clearing Zot:5 is awful. Berserkitis is dangerous but you can usually play around it if moving carefully and not triggering ripostes. But TP into liches/OOF/QS dragons + purple dragonians is one of those rare late game cheap shots that overly encourages scumming to be capable of handling or preventing it.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2173

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Saturday, 1st February 2020, 18:26

Re: TSO->Zin->TSO To remove muts?

For TSO worshippers the most obvious way to cut line of fire is to hide behind an angel. In extended, you can afford to always walk around with an angel.

Butterflies are extremely unreliable for this, unless you are in a corridor.

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