Troll


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 27th January 2020, 18:36

Troll

Trying out Troll, but can not figure out "Claws" and way people use late in the game. Seems the limit is 9damge/0.5delay, no proc, so sort of underwhelming.

As for skilling, I skilled unarmed/fighting till unarmed in 6, then added shield/armor/dodge. When I picked a god needing invocation, plan to skill that up to 8, and then switch to throwing.

That being said, what am i missing on unarmed combat, and what is the best way to play with skills on a troll melee?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 27th January 2020, 20:20

Re: Troll

You're missing out on the fact that weapon skill adds to melee damage, for weapons it increases the damage done by a percentage of the weapon's base damage (this is why a larger base damage weapon with a smaller enchantment is usually better at moderate skill). For unarmed, it adds directly to the base damage of your attack. Troll claws are one of the best weapons in the game at Unarmed skill 27 (Better than any regular two handed weapon, and can be used with a shield, with only a small loss in DPS).

Also FWIW fighting additionally increases damage by a percentage of your base weapon damage (as does strength)

Note that a top tier maximally enchanted two handed weapon with a decent brand is *nearly* as good as troll claws with 27 unarmed, the difference isn't massive, but you start the game with troll claws, no worrying about finding/enchanting such a thing.
Last edited by Siegurt on Tuesday, 28th January 2020, 00:29, edited 1 time in total.
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vt

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Post Monday, 27th January 2020, 23:49

Re: Troll

Seems the limit is 9damge/0.5delay, no proc, so sort of underwhelming.


I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. You can definitely get to more than 9 dam per 5 aut with a troll using unarmed combat. Am I misunderstanding you?

Edit: ah nevermind, I understand what you were thinking (and I see I was not reading Siegurt's reply carefully enough, to boot).

In the interest of having a post that adds some value, I'll say that I did some highly unsystematic fight simulating. With some approximately mid-game stats (level 15, 28 str, 15 fighting, 20 uc, and 20 m&f) a troll does better damage with unarmed combat than a +9 giant spiked club against a stone giant: about 30 vs 35 dam per 10 aut. Adding a large shield with enough shield skill to get rid of the penalty brings the UC damage down to ~30, but of course adds 21 SH in defenses. Bumping up a few levels in xl and skills, I tested some late-game enemies (orb guardians and orbs of fire) to see similar results, with UC and giant spiked club pretty comparable in damage (~27 for orb guardians, ~18 for oofs) but with more defenses for UC (or drop the shield and see somewhat higher damage).

Obviously this was pretty slap-dash testing, and perhaps not with exactly the parameters that would apply to your actual games; but hopefully it's enough to show that UC on a troll remains viable in the mid- and late-game. It compares well to a strong melee weapon alternative.
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Dis Charger

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2020, 11:05

Re: Troll

grinrain wrote:As for skilling, I skilled unarmed/fighting till unarmed in 6, then added shield/armor/dodge. When I picked a god needing invocation, plan to skill that up to 8, and then switch to throwing.

That being said, what am i missing on unarmed combat, and what is the best way to play with skills on a troll melee?
I'd train only UC to ~8-10 then add Throwing or Evoc or Invoc depending on what you find/worship.

Train also some Fighting/Shield.

I only start training Armour when I have some Dragon scales, and Dodging even later. Troll's defenses are big HP pool, regen and big damage.

Whatever happens, I have UC training on almost all game long.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2020, 12:35

Re: Troll

The strategy that's effective for me is train Unarmed to around 6, where you get the first mindelay increase, then switch over to Dodging. Around that point melee monsters start to become worrying, and Dodging needs some time before the training pays off. Seriously, how do you play that Spiny Frogs or Two-Headed Ogres don't ruin your day if you postpone Dodging so much?
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Dis Charger

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2020, 12:51

Re: Troll

b0rsuk wrote:The strategy that's effective for me is train Unarmed to around 6, where you get the first mindelay increase, then switch over to Dodging. Around that point melee monsters start to become worrying, and Dodging needs some time before the training pays off. Seriously, how do you play that Spiny Frogs or Two-Headed Ogres don't ruin your day if you postpone Dodging so much?
I throw/evok at them before they come to melee range, then just claw them in the face.
As I said, troll's design is "the best defense is offense" ;)

I honestly think that a skill training of 25% Fighting / 50% UC / 25% Throwing (swap Invo/Evoc if needed) until you've cleared Orc/Lair is totally worth it for trolls
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 28th January 2020, 18:31

Re: Troll

b0rsuk wrote:The strategy that's effective for me is train Unarmed to around 6, where you get the first mindelay increase
It doesn't work like this anymore (and when it did the breakpoints were at multiples of 5, not 6). The delay is randomly rounded now so that each level of unarmed combat skill reduces delay by 1/54 on average.

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Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 27th February 2020, 03:41

Re: Troll

Still playing with Troll fighter. Once I get Invocation to 8, do I need to worry about changing what I am learning? Just leave fighting/uc/throwing/armor/dodge/shielding on and let it ride?

PS: Am I doing something wrong? Have cleared dungeon 1-15. Lair, Orc, and was about to head to do a branch. But only shoals and Slime show, no spider/snake?
PSS: Still wish I understood UC better. Would like to believe some artifact weapons would be better, but no way to compare.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Thursday, 27th February 2020, 14:29

Re: Troll

UC is great. I’ve been playing a lot of octopuses recently. 27 fighting 27 UC 27 dodging (I’m well into extended) and a large shield and stuff barely ever hits me. Yet most enemies die in a single or two hits - even pan lords (I do have 55 strength though and use Statue form)

I don’t think there’s a weapon that could tempt me away from UC on troll or octopode, aside from a flaming something on troll to deal with hydras.


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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 27th February 2020, 16:15

Re: Troll

grinrain wrote:Still playing with Troll fighter. Once I get Invocation to 8, do I need to worry about changing what I am learning? Just leave fighting/uc/throwing/armor/dodge/shielding on and let it ride?

From a bigger picture perspective, think about whether you want to be primarly a thrower or primarily UC; whichever you choose should get the biggest share of your exp. Either way, fighting should get the 2nd biggest share. All the others you mentioned should get a small share. If you have good evocables like wand of enslavement, fan of gales, or sack of spiders, then I suggest putting evocations in the small share category too.
grinrain wrote:PS: Am I doing something wrong? Have cleared dungeon 1-15. Lair, Orc, and was about to head to do a branch. But only shoals and Slime show, no spider/snake?

The lair must contain either spider or snake. Most likely, there is some level that autoexplore wasn't able to fully explore due to plants or steam clouds in the way.
grinrain wrote:PSS: Still wish I understood UC better. Would like to believe some artifact weapons would be better, but no way to compare.

A big-picture summary is that UC without forms or claws is weaker than weapons unless you max it out (which is not typically worthwhile since maxing a skill is a huge amount of experience), but UC with claws is never really weak and is actually quite strong for most of the game.

Some comparisons to illustrate this:

1 UC, your punch has a base damage of 4, like a +0 dagger - quite bad.
10 UC, your punch has a base damage of 13, like a +0 scimitar at equal weapon skill - a bit bad for that point in the game.
20 UC, your punch has a base damage of 23, like a +0 lajatang (or +2ish eveningstar) at equal weapon skill - pretty bad for that point in the game.
27 UC, your punch has a base damage of 30, like a +0 giant club (or +9ish eveningstar) at equal weapon skill - at this point UC's uncapped attack speed is now 40% faster than the comparison (whereas in all previous it was less than 12% faster); this 40% damage boost is better than any eveningstar brand except possibly vampiric or antimagic, so UC has finally gotten good for a one-handed weapon. The problem is that it took 27 skill levels to get here, which is a massive investment. A 3-rune character would typically invest 10-20 skill levels.

When you have claws, each level of claws provides +2 to unarmed base damage, so a total of +6 base damage for claws 3 (which trolls have). Claws 3 changes the above comparisons dramatically:

1 UC, your punch has base damage 10, like a +0 flail with equal weapon skill - a great starting weapon, AND UC's relatively fast base attack speed makes it about 40% faster.
10 UC, your punch has a base damage of 19, like a +0 lajatang (or +1ish eveningstar) at equal weapon skill - a pretty good weapon at that point in the game.
20 UC, your punch has a base damage of 29, like a +1ish giant club (or +10ish eveningstar) at equal weapon skill - this is not super impressive but it's decent for one-handed weapons at that point in the game.
27 UC, your punch has a base damage of 36. This would hit like a +0 weapon with 23 base damage (does not exist), or like a +17ish eveningstar, and at this point we've once again gotten about 40% faster attack speed, so it's pretty insane.

If you want mathematical detail, search the knowledge bots for "damage", it will provide two links that summarize the formulas, and you will see how weapon vs unarmed damage are calculated.

edit: Thanks duvessa for the fact check, I updated the summary above, old one is in spoiler
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A big-picture summary is that UC scales better with skill investment than melee weapons do; it starts out a bit weak but eventually surpasses weapons.

Some comparisons to illustrate this: at 1 UC, your punch has a base damage of 4, like a +0 dagger - quite bad. At 10 UC, your punch has a base damage of 13, like a +0 morningstar - a bit bad for that point in the game. At 20 UC, your punch has a base damage of 23, which is literally more than any weapon in the game except Dark Maul, although some big weapons can still compete (if you had equal weapon skill) due to slaying, brands, and reach / cleave. At 27 UC, your punch has a base damage of 30, while swinging at the minimum delay of a dagger, and any non-artifact melee weapon (and 99.9% of artifact weapons) just cannot compete.

When you have claws, UC becomes much better at ALL levels, so that its start is not weak, and its end is even stronger. Each level of claws provides +2 to unarmed base damage, so a total of +6 base damage for claws 3 (which trolls have). Claws 3 changes the above comparisons, so that at UC 1 your punch has base damage 10, like a +0 flail - a great starting weapon. At 10 UC, your punch has a base damage of 19, just one less than a +0 giant club - a pretty good weapon at that point in the game. At 20 UC, your punch has a base damage of 29, which is just one less than the max UC god without claws. At 27 UC your punch has a base damage of 36.
Last edited by stormdragon on Friday, 28th February 2020, 23:47, edited 1 time in total.

vt

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 00:02

Re: Troll

> At 10 UC, your punch has a base damage of 19, just one less than a +0 giant club - a pretty good weapon at that point in the game.

These numbers (19 and 20) are used in different ways, so it's a little deceptive to directly compare them against each other like this.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 00:04

Re: Troll

stormdragon wrote:Some comparisons to illustrate this: at 1 UC, your punch has a base damage of 4, like a +0 dagger - quite bad. At 10 UC, your punch has a base damage of 13, like a +0 morningstar - a bit bad for that point in the game. At 20 UC, your punch has a base damage of 23, which is literally more than any weapon in the game except Dark Maul, although some big weapons can still compete (if you had equal weapon skill) due to slaying, brands, and reach / cleave. At 27 UC, your punch has a base damage of 30, while swinging at the minimum delay of a dagger, and any non-artifact melee weapon (and 99.9% of artifact weapons) just cannot compete.
Why are you comparing positive skill UC to 0 skill weapons? This is like saying "at 20 polearms skill, your scythe does more damage than a battleaxe!"

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 14:33

Re: Troll

An unorthodox but very effective god for trolls is Dithmenos. You get to choose your fights and your regeneration is rarely overwhelmed. You get passive bonus damage, stealth and mobility. And stabbing trolls are just overkill.

It's like that guy on reddit who figured out kobolds are among the best berserkers.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 16:13

Re: Troll

It is a comparison of base damage only. Yes, I left out the skill-level-based multiplier that weapons get (and the bonus this gives is not multiplied by Fighting, so it is not apples-to-apples the same type of damage growth as UC). I also left out most of the differences in speed and accuracy. As I said, it was just a bigger picture look (for building some intuition), exact details can be calculated using the knowledge bots link I provided at the bottom.

edit: The bit about Fighting is actually not true, the weapon skill bonus and UC skill bonus can be compared apples-to-apples, so I omitted it from my summary for no reason, which makes the summary worse. My bad.
Last edited by stormdragon on Friday, 28th February 2020, 21:47, edited 1 time in total.

vt

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 17:55

Re: Troll

If you're just comparing base damage, a short sword looks better than a quickblade. If you omit enough details at some point it moves from "big-picture summary" to "deceptive."

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 18:00

Re: Troll

stormdragon wrote:the bonus this gives is not multiplied by Fighting, so it is not apples-to-apples the same type of damage growth as UC
This is just a flat-out lie.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 21:18

Re: Troll

duvessa wrote:
stormdragon wrote:the bonus this gives is not multiplied by Fighting, so it is not apples-to-apples the same type of damage growth as UC
This is just a flat-out lie.

From the knowledge bots page on "skill bonus", I can see that max weapon skill gives an average bonus of 54% whereas max fighting gives an average bonus of 45%. If they stack additively, the total multiplier would be 1.99. If they stack multiplicatively, the total multiplier would be 2.233. The knowledge bots page on "weapon damage" says that skill bonus averages about 2.0 at max skill, and the extra decimal point suggests a desire to be precise (maybe rounding to the tenths place), so I figured the total 1.99 multiplier would be correct.

Duvessa, I know you've spent time with the source code, so more than likely you're right and the decimal point is there for no reason.

In that case, the calculations are more similar than I thought between UC and weapon, so I guess I could have gotten more precise without too much complication. My bad.

vt wrote:If you're just comparing base damage, a short sword looks better than a quickblade. If you omit enough details at some point it moves from "big-picture summary" to "deceptive."

Quick blades are actually pretty bad compared to similarly rare one-handed weapons (like demon weapons), and the easiest way to illustrate this is to point to their lower base damage. But it's true that with slaying they're better than short swords.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 21:36

Re: Troll

They stack multiplicatively. The effect of Fighting skill on weapons is identical to the effect of Fighting skill on unarmed combat.

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grinrain, stormdragon

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 21:44

Re: Troll

duvessa wrote:They stack multiplicatively. The effect of Fighting skill on weapons is identical to the effect of Fighting skill on unarmed combat.

That is right. Your last comment prompted me to do a quick search of the source to confirm, and I saw it in attack::calc_damage.

stormdragon wrote:In that case, the calculations are more similar than I thought between UC and weapon, so I guess I could have gotten more precise without too much complication. My bad.

So yeah, I'm sorry about that. Duvessa, I would suggest that next time, you say "flat-out wrong" instead of "a flat-out lie" since the word "lie" implies knowingly being false, and I assure you that I did not know this. But it doesn't really matter that much. I learned something, so thank you.

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damerell, Jano

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 28th February 2020, 23:50

Re: Troll

duvessa wrote:They stack multiplicatively. The effect of Fighting skill on weapons is identical to the effect of Fighting skill on unarmed combat.

Knowing this allows me to make more accurate comparisons more easily, so I have edited to replace the bad summary (which is spoilered for reference). Hopefully it is more useful.

vt

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 29th February 2020, 02:19

Re: Troll

Quick blades are actually pretty bad compared to similarly rare one-handed weapons (like demon weapons)


Demon weapons have nothing to do with what I said.

But it's true that with slaying they're better than short swords.


Yes it is true, since it's also true that a quick blade is better than a short sword with zero slay, no brand, and 12 sb skill. (Yes I let myself get trolled into pulling up fsim for this. I tried yaks, death yaks, wyverns, stone giants, orb guardians, and orbs of fire with various amounts of fighting and strength. The quick blade won against everybody.)

I mean, it's pretty obvious that you cannot usefully compare weapons (or a weapon and UC) by base damage while ignoring differences in the speed at which they attack. I would say it's much more obvious than other, not exposed to the player, differences in the formulae that turn base damage into a final damage number between UC and weapon melee.

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duvessa

Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 2nd March 2020, 14:53

Re: Troll

vt wrote:Yes it is true, since it's also true that a quick blade is better than a short sword with zero slay, no brand, and 12 sb skill. (Yes I let myself get trolled into pulling up fsim for this. I tried yaks, death yaks, wyverns, stone giants, orb guardians, and orbs of fire with various amounts of fighting and strength. The quick blade won against everybody.)

I tested it against centaur and you're right. Good to know, thanks. I added speed to the comparisons in question, when the speed difference is 20% or greater. Hopefully it is more useful. I don't know why you're calling me a troll though.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 2nd March 2020, 15:15

Re: Troll

I thought the way to compare weapons was damage/delay or more likely (damage * proc)/delay. Why would you compare just damage without taking into account delay. Yes, I know that some procs like elec are additive, but still.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 2nd March 2020, 15:45

Re: Troll

grinrain wrote:I thought the way to compare weapons was damage/delay or more likely (damage * proc)/delay. Why would you compare just damage without taking into account delay. Yes, I know that some procs like elec are additive, but still.

Both proc and delay can be thought of as multipliers of your post-AC damage. For example if you roll 5 damage and AC rolls 4, you deal 1, and any proc you get will modify the 1, not the 5. Knowing this, a brand that increases your post-AC damage by 25% is no different on average than a speed increase of 25%.

Base damage is very valuable because it increases your pre-AC damage. Most attacks in this game do low or no damage because of AC, which is where the base-damage-is-supremely-important perspective comes from. On the other hand, your average damage is heavily influenced by rare and valuable "highroll" attacks where everything went right for the attacker including a low AC roll, so base damage isn't everything.

Also slaying has the reverse effect of AC, but how much slaying you have depends greatly on what point of the game you're in and how lucky you are with jewelry, and how much AC is there of course depends on the enemy. The real answer to a "which is better" question is usually "it depends", but that's not very useful, so when talking about a specific character fsim is used, and when talking in general it is common to trim some factors or make some assumptions. I went too far with that and did a poor job so the result was not very realistic. After editing based on criticism it should be more useful now.

vt

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Post Monday, 2nd March 2020, 17:40

Re: Troll

I don't know why you're calling me a troll though.


I thought you were commenting in bad faith. I apologize if I was wrong.

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