Help me find a niche for Slings!

[b0rsuk]

I'm trying hard to come up with a character that would want to use Slings as their main ranged weapon. The only real argument for choosing Slings seems to be that you might choose them if you find you find a good sling on one of first levels and don't find a bow/crossbow. Depending on your approach to the game and if you care about win streaks, this may be a good reason. But would anyone prefer a sling? The problem is magnified when you realize good shield races either have access to large rocks, or can wield a large shield with a crossbow.

If you're without a shield, either a bow or crossbow will deal more damage. If you're with a shield, throwing is a very solid choice, with a variety of options:
- stones for early game
- poisoned darts against orc warriors, yaks, ogres, insects
- boomerangs as an all-around best choice
- large rocks if you play a large race
- silver to kill mutators FAST
- javelins for rows of enemies
- throwing nets
And you can use whatever the situation requires.

Slings have quite low base damage and staff sling (fustibalus) is very rare. The best chance to get one is likely acquirement or Okawaru. The main advantage of Slings over throwing weapons is you can use an enchanted launcher. But to do that, you're sacrificing a good melee weapon, which throwers don't have to do. Also, you will likely use most or all scrolls on a single sling, which means you're inflexible unless you get vorpal. Frost brand can be good against cold-blooded, electricity - if it can appear on slings - would be a good fit for the simplest sling.

Am I missing something or slings don't really have a good niche?

[duvessa]

you are a small species and addicted to shields

[petercordia]

If you're comparing to throwing, and using 'optimal play', the only strategic advantage is that Slings need less xp. (At 14 skill a Fusti might just do more damage than a javelin.)
There's also the practical advantage of not having to think as much about ammo and having less inventory slots used up.

I think the problem is you're comparing slings to throwing. Throwing is busted If you compare slings to one-handed melee weapons, I think they're decent. A Fustibalus is about as hard to get as a Demon trident. And whilst slings have less damage than 1-handed melee weapons, having infinite range is very convenient.

In summary, slings have a niche where you want a shield, plenty of XP for other things, and as little hassle as possible.
As an example, you could try slings on a heavily armoured Chei warrior-mage.

[Airwolf]

Halfling's +3 Slings aptitude.

Now to find a niche for Halflings...

Edit: Punk, also, too.

[grinrain]

Given Throwing seems broken, and I have enchant weapons/brand weapon scrolls, using a +7 freeze sling. Not bad using bullets

[b0rsuk]

Okay so another way of looking at this is that Slings are an early-game enchant scroll sink. In a 3 rune game you may not find enough scrolls to fully enchant 2 weapons. So what melee weapons don't depend on scrolls of enchantment?

- artifacts (not reliable)
- magical staves (not reliable)
- unarmed (better without a shield)
- unarmed transmuter (I heard these tend to be so powerful they don't need a backup weapon)

[petercordia]

- magical staves (not reliable)
- unarmed (better without a shield)
- unarmed transmuter (I heard these tend to be so powerful they don't need a backup weapon)

None of these are accurate to my knowledge.

Whenever my ideal endgame weapon was a stave, I've been able to find a stave of earth/fire/etc. I've had a game where I didn't get a stave of energy when I really wanted one, but with hindsight that's because I wasted my scrolls of acquirement.
Unarmed is better with a shield. (You get slightly less damage output (~16% according to the wiki), but much better defence)
Transmutes tend to be melee glass cannons in my experience - unless they're running statueform/lategame naga bladehands - and a backup ranged weapon can be helpful.

Okay so another way of looking at this is that Slings are an early-game enchant scroll sink. In a 3 rune game you may not find enough scrolls to fully enchant 2 weapons. So what melee weapons don't depend on scrolls of enchantment?

And where is this coming from?
And what point are you trying to make?

[b0rsuk]

I'm trying to make the point that when your melee weapon is non-enchantable, it goes well with a sling because the weapons don't compete for scrolls.

Did you have success with a staff of earth? The damage seems pretty underwhelming. I mean I just lost a demigod EE who took his staff from Jogrun. 1d(1.25 * (Evo/2 + Earth) damage might seem like a lot of damage, but the staff has base damage of 5 and that's not a lot to multiply with Fighting or Staves skill. I don't think the bonus damage makes up for inability to use 9 Enchant Weapon scrolls. It's also pretty inaccurate in melee (no enchantment, no high Fighting).

I found outh Earth Elementalists have low range of 4 unless they use LRD. A sling could cover the long range niche.

[petercordia]

TBH I almost always stick to a single weapon - melee or ranged. Usually even if I go throwing. So to factor in competition for scrolls in this way doesn't occur to me, except in the specific situation where I consider enchanting a non-endgame weapon.
If I train slings, I go pure slings.

Yes, I did have success with the staff of earth. Obviously I used it on a character which focussed on Int, and trained only 12 staves skill. Even so, wearing light robes & with low strength, I could melee most enemies. (The bonus damage is much better than +9. Having a shield really helps.) Magic & evocations could be used for the other enemies. (Actually magic could kill everything, but bashing stuff with a staff of earth can be much more convenient - you don't have to retreat as much.)

[TheMeInTeam]

In the early game, picking up and using a 0 skill sling is valuable if you know it isn't cursed/aren't a caster. Beats throwing stones, and it crosstrains throwing anyway.

Highly enchanted slings (usually random artifact stuff) continue to be useful for most of the early-mid game. Something like punk or fustibalus even long-term.

It's not a big XP investment if you find a good one early.

Elemental staves hit decently and swing decently fast at low skill training if and only if you're training school + evocations already anyway. Clubbing enemies like a seal with earth staff when you're pushing for shatter late game is kind of amusing.

Also you do want to train some fighting regardless, it's inexpensive HP until you take it high.

[stormdragon]

you are a small species and addicted to shields

Actually boomerangs are overpowered compared to slings.