How can I get all skills to 27


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 21st September 2019, 20:37

How can I get all skills to 27

I'd like to get all skills to 27 on a character. So I'm playing a gnoll ;) . Currently with Vehm, at Zot:1.

Character dump is here: https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... cordia.txt

So questions I have for this character:
How much of the game am I likely to have to play through to get all skills to 27? Is Hell+Pan enough, or will I have to do a Zig?
Should I switch to TSO? I can almost get Necromutation at the cost of only 8 spell slots, and Vehm is better in a Zig, and I'm relying on Vehm for my most powerful spells, but health regen on kills would be nice. I can also get a +9 Holy Fustibalus (in addition to a +9 blowgun) if I go with TSO.
Is it worth using a scroll of amnesia to get rid of PoG in Zot? It's good in Hell and Pan AFAIK. I have 5 amnesia scrolls available.

Again, my goal is to max out all skills.

Shoals Surfer

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Joined: Monday, 17th December 2012, 16:04

Post Saturday, 21st September 2019, 20:48

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

I recently started a Gnoll and have everything on 27, it took me Hells, Tomb, clear Zot till 4, abyssal rune and about 3 Ziggs to get there. I havent set foot in Pandemonium yet because getting runes is boring.

You could also:

1: grind Abyss,
2: grind Pan,

Instead.

good luck!
aka: Innameasone and electricaloddity
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 22nd September 2019, 04:49

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

Very slowly.

You should at least do part of a Zig, early on they're not hard and can still be a good XP source.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 22nd September 2019, 15:05

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

So it sounds like I need advice for a Zig.

Can you tell me what combination of spells, gods, equipment & consumables you used for your Gnoll Zigs? Any important tactics I should know of?
Also, can anyone tell me how important starting piety is for a Zig?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 27th September 2019, 00:06

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

There are multiple strategies for Ziggs, and I'm not going to try to be super complete here, but the most common strategy is usually necromutation and level 9 aoe spells. Firestorm and Tornado (both, not just one) being the general standard. This might be slightly harder to do on a gnoll since you can't focus those skills, but if you've cleared extended already you're probably good enough to cast both with maybe a wizardry ring and some +int. Controlled blink is also recommended, although it can be hard to find. After you clear a couple of floors in a zigg you can probably do it without the wizardry.

For god choices I think Makhleb is usually best, but if you want Vehumet for the mana restore that's fine too. But you don't die with 0 mana, and you do die with 0 health. You can also use basically any god for the first 1-2 ziggs, it's only the megaziggs that "require" Makhleb.

Require is in quotes because there are crazy people who have done >100 ziggs on a gargoyle of Zin. So alternate builds definitely exist.

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petercordia

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Post Friday, 27th September 2019, 13:24

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

The challenge lies in getting lv 9 spells online. I suppose I could drop down to archmagi robes + medium shield (instead of my current +8 Firedragon scales + large shield), but I'd feel safer if that could be avoided.

How do you deal with mana with Makleb + necromutation? Sublimation of blood wouldn't work anymore...

Also, if I'm using Necromutation I can play mutation roulette until I get a good enough mutation set right? I've currently settled for {clumsy 1, sense surroundings 1, robust 1, no potion heal 1}, but I've got 10 or so more !mut I could play around with, if that'd be helpful.

Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 28th September 2019, 20:14

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

petercordia wrote:The challenge lies in getting lv 9 spells online. I suppose I could drop down to archmagi robes + medium shield (instead of my current +8 Firedragon scales + large shield), but I'd feel safer if that could be avoided.

How do you deal with mana with Makleb + necromutation? Sublimation of blood wouldn't work anymore...

Also, if I'm using Necromutation I can play mutation roulette until I get a good enough mutation set right? I've currently settled for {clumsy 1, sense surroundings 1, robust 1, no potion heal 1}, but I've got 10 or so more !mut I could play around with, if that'd be helpful.


Here are some tips:
Don't drop to robes, you'd be better off with steam dragon or other lightish dragon scales
Use the medium shield, don't worry about large shield if it affects your casting ability, just wait until your skills are all higher
Drop your initial expectation of firestorm down to ignition, it's almost as good and even better in some cases
Quaff brilliance potions strategically if you need to get tornado and/or necromutation launched
Mana comes primarily from either sublimate if you're on a non-tormenting level and you stay alive, OR it comes from channelling a staff of energy at opportune moments
Channel mana and sublimate especially during spells like tornado that kill over several turns
Do not worry about mutations if you're planning to Zig, you'll get a lot of mutation potions, gaining XP to push you into decent armour + critical spells is more important
If you finish a zig all the way and get a token, you'll likely be strong enough to finish several more with much less risk, so quaff mut potions until you're happy with a set
Timing is very important, don't unload all your firepower every second just because you can, keep topping off your mana and unload when you stand to benefit from it most
For your first zig, use liberal amounts of potions in-advance of the encounters because you pick up lots of potions, and you need room for all the gear you find
After you're pretty strong from doing an entire zig, potions won't be quite as critical to survival (you'll stabilize by being much stronger and having better gear overall)
Balance all your resists, don't leave holes if possible, beyond that items with big +Int and +Str are the most valuable.
Consider swapping between an elemental staff and staff of energy for quick bursts to your spell power before unloading at key moments.
If you encounter a level you don't think you can handle, use liberal fog/teleport/blink scrolls to get out ASAP. A last ditch effort is intentionally unwielding distortion brand to get yourself banished.
Evocable items that summon stuff like spiders, beasts, etc. can serve as good distractions if you get into trouble and need to try and buy time to escape/recharge.
Keep a couple good evocable items for dealing with situations where you might find yourself silenced.
Dragon Form + UC is a very good last line of defense if you're in big trouble (smash anything without needing mana or spells)

Good luck!

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Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 30th September 2019, 15:23

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

I had a similar run in May this year, here is the dump:
https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/ma ... 155457.txt

I reached 27 with all skills on lvl 23 of the second Zig.

The spell list of the character is misleading, the lvl 9 big spells are only a late development, the first Zig (and before that the entire game) was mostly about vile clutch and lightning spire. Great spells.

If you want to melee stuff (or have to) I recommend a weapon - and certainly not dragon form. Dragon form is best for 1v1 combat, it is dangerous against multiple opponents because your defenses are crap.

Finally, I recommend Ultraviolent4's Ziggy Golddust videos. Ziggy is not a gnoll, but a mummy (of Gozag), but whatever. There are a couple of Zigs cleared with lower level spells.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJsj9nB ... 2whzbOh5if

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Post Monday, 30th September 2019, 18:39

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

All the other advice in this thread is great. There is more in other threads here and there, some of it by me, if that helps you to search.

Javelins are strong to pick off summoners & smiters behind other monsters and also to damage many monsters at once.

Otherwise, go slow and use your brain. Most of the floors will be easy but a few can be very deadly if you aren't careful. Think through *all* of your options. Buff, flee, etc early.

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Tomb Titivator

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Post Tuesday, 25th February 2020, 08:18

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

I'm working on a zigger now. the strat is garg berserker (easy mode), all points in int, then at level 27, switch to tso and farm abyss 1, then zin away any muts. you can use lua to automate the process. optimally you get to a point where you're doing it in lich form with mahkleb, but tso is great for the first few 27s.

with a ring of wizardry you should be able to manage firestorm and tornado, and just nuke zigs. note that the super-zigs are basically impossible and you should just skip floors and aport what you want.

you use crystal balls for mp.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Tuesday, 25th February 2020, 10:16

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

If you want int, why start with a berserker?
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2020, 00:21

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

A garg zerker with points into int gives you enough str + int at the end to wear dragon scales when you do your zig. Here's how it's going for me currently:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.25-a0-565-g8875c97ebb (webtiles) character file.

sky the Conqueror (Gargoyle Berserker)            Turns: 243848, Time: 10:35:00

Health: 199/199    AC: 71    Str: 29 (30) XL:     27
Magic:  54/54      EV: 29    Int: 16 (19) God:    Makhleb [******]
Gold:   7313       SH: 35    Dex:  9      Spells: 7/80 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis +   a - +9 eveningstar (freeze)
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   e - +8 tower shield {AC+3}
rNeg     + . .     Faith    .   z - +13 storm dragon scales of Nougezib {rElec Str+4 Stlth+}
rPois    ∞         Spirit   .   k - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec    +         Reflect  .   Q - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   s - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
MR       ++...                  E - +2 pair of boots {Stlth+}
Stlth    ++++++++..             w - amulet of the Sneaky Scars {Regen+ Slay+3 Stlth+}
HPRegen  0.83/turn              K - ring of wizardry
MPRegen  0.34/turn              M - ring of Phasing {EV+8}

@: flying, studying Slings, deflect missiles
A: big wings, negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +20
}: 15/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian,
icy, bone, abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark
a: Stop Flying, Minor Destruction, Lesser Servant of Makhleb, Major Destruction,
Greater Servant of Makhleb, Renounce Religion


You are on level 27 of a ziggurat.
You worship Makhleb.
Makhleb is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and seen 90 of its levels.
You have visited Pandemonium 11 times, and seen 70 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 66 times.
You have visited 4 bazaars.
You have visited 1 ziggurat, and seen 27 of its levels.
You have also visited: Gauntlet.

You have collected 35210 gold pieces.
You have spent 11246 gold pieces at shops.
You have donated 16651 gold pieces to Zin.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +9 eveningstar of freezing (weapon)
 c - a +9 sacred scourge of holy wrath
 d - a +9 great mace of holy wrath
Armour
 e - a +8 tower shield of protection (worn)
 k - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 s - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
 z - the +13 storm dragon scales of Nougezib (worn) {rElec Str+4 Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Iron City of Dis)   
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It makes you more stealthy.
   
   If you remove this armour, your AC will decrease by 35 (71 -> 36).
 E - a +2 pair of boots of stealth (worn)
 Q - a scarf of resistance (worn)
 Y - a +2 robe of resistance
Magical Staves
 b - an uncursed staff of energy {!a}
Jewellery
 u - the ring "Kybb" {rC++ MP+9}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Snake Pit)   
   
   [ring of magical power]
   
   It greatly protects you from cold.
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
 w - the amulet of the Sneaky Scars (around neck) {Regen+ Slay+3 Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Iron City of Dis)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+3).
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
   It makes you more stealthy.
 C - the ring of Rexuu {rElec rN+ SInv}
   (You found it on level 23 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of positive energy]
   
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It lets you see invisible.
 H - the ring "Onos" {MR+ Slay+5}
   (You found it on level 7 of Gehenna)   
   
   [ring of protection from magic]
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+5).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 K - a ring of wizardry (left hand)
 M - the ring of Phasing (right hand) {EV+8}
   (You found it in a Gauntlet)   
   
   [ring of evasion]
   
   It affects your evasion (+8).
 N - the amulet "Etsegufa" {rF+ Regen+}
   (You found it on level 4 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 O - the amulet "Anubidorch" {rF++ Regen+ Dex-2 Stlth+}
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It affects your dexterity (-2).
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
   It makes you more stealthy.
 R - the ring "Tifomnas" {rN+ MR+ Dex+3}
   (You found it on level 7 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of dexterity]
   
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 S - the ring "Tuiskie" {rN+ Int+6}
   (You found it on level 25 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of positive energy]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+6).
   It protects you from negative energy.
 U - the macabre finger necklace {rN+}
   (You found it on level 12 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of nothing]
   
   It protects you from negative energy.
 W - the amulet of Twilight {Gourm +Fly rC+ Slay+6}
   (You found it on level 19 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of the gourmand]
   
   It allows you to eat raw meat even when not hungry.
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+6).
   It protects you from cold.
   It lets you fly.
 Z - the ring of Odicy {rF+ Str+2}
   (You found it on level 18 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It protects you from fire.
Wands
 D - a wand of digging (26)
Scrolls
 f - 90 scrolls of remove curse
 i - 84 scrolls of identify
 q - 17 scrolls of enchant weapon
 t - 19 scrolls of magic mapping
 x - 22 scrolls of amnesia
 y - 28 scrolls of blinking
 A - 53 scrolls of teleportation
 B - 19 scrolls of enchant armour
 G - 11 scrolls of holy word
 T - 42 scrolls of fog
Potions
 h - 56 potions of curing
 l - 25 potions of cancellation
 n - 11 potions of resistance
 o - 6 potions of might
 F - 31 potions of heal wounds
 I - 8 potions of ambrosia
 J - 23 potions of magic
 L - 23 potions of brilliance
 P - 15 potions of mutation
Books
 g - a manual of Slings
Miscellaneous
 r - 2 figurines of a ziggurat
 V - a crystal ball of energy
Comestibles
 m - 162 rations


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 O Level 27 Maces & Flails
 O Level 27 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 O Level 27 Stealth
 O Level 27 Shields
 O Level 27 Spellcasting
 O Level 27 Conjurations
 - Level 13.4 Hexes
 - Level 15.3 Summonings
 - Level 24.6 Necromancy
 - Level 23.7 Translocations
 + Level 0.0 Transmutations
 O Level 27 Fire Magic
 - Level 7.5 Ice Magic
 O Level 27 Air Magic
 - Level 13.0 Invocations
 O Level 27 Evocations


You have 7 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
c - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          1%          8    ######.
d - Dispel Undead         Necr           #######.     0%          4    None
e - Apportation           Tloc           ######       0%          1    None
f - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      #######...   1%          9    #######
i - Invisibility          Hex            ######..     1%          6    ###....
k - Aura of Abjuration    Summ           ######....   1%          5    None
l - Necromutation         Tmut/Necr      ######....   45%         8    ######.
r - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       ######....   1%          6    ###....
s - Lehudib's Crystal Sp  Conj/Erth      ######....   32%         8    ######.
t - Tornado               Air            #######...   1%          9    #######
P - Glaciate              Conj/Ice       ######....   69%         9    #######


Garg zerker is the easiest start to pull this off. If you tried a deep elf wizard, you'd likely splat instead of steamrolling everything with tab until you're able to farm the abyss.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5318

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Monday, 9th March 2020, 21:13

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

Magipi wrote:If you want to melee stuff (or have to) I recommend a weapon - and certainly not dragon form. Dragon form is best for 1v1 combat, it is dangerous against multiple opponents because your defenses are crap.


I'll go one step further and recommend not using dragon form for crowds, 1v1, or any reason at all. Spell seriously needs a rework. It can be useful on races with no armor (octopodes/felids) but even then just do statue form and get some actual defenses.

But yeah for mana restoring staff of energy is usually enough. Also if you find any artifacts with MP+9, consider raising your mana pool. Mana regen is based off max mana, and you'd be surprised how long your mana will last if you happen to have around 80 mana. 80 mana may not be easy to reach, but you're talking about clearing multiple ziggs...so you probably can. I had 84 mana on a naga who completed 4 ziggs before I got tired of grinding it (and somewhat fearful of inevitable player error) and escaped.

Blades Runner

Posts: 553

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 13th March 2020, 19:56

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

tasonir wrote:
Magipi wrote:If you want to melee stuff (or have to) I recommend a weapon - and certainly not dragon form. Dragon form is best for 1v1 combat, it is dangerous against multiple opponents because your defenses are crap.


I'll go one step further and recommend not using dragon form for crowds, 1v1, or any reason at all. Spell seriously needs a rework. It can be useful on races with no armor (octopodes/felids) but even then just do statue form and get some actual defenses.

But yeah for mana restoring staff of energy is usually enough. Also if you find any artifacts with MP+9, consider raising your mana pool. Mana regen is based off max mana, and you'd be surprised how long your mana will last if you happen to have around 80 mana. 80 mana may not be easy to reach, but you're talking about clearing multiple ziggs...so you probably can. I had 84 mana on a naga who completed 4 ziggs before I got tired of grinding it (and somewhat fearful of inevitable player error) and escaped.


What happens is this: you kill almost everything with firestorm+tornado, until you don't. The majority of the times when they aren't adequate are due to a few reasons:

You're silenced, or about to be silenced
You're out of mana, or about to be out of mana
The stuff you were trying to kill with AOE spells didn't die in part because they are highly resistant to elemental damage, and possibly don't fly or just have high defenses in general.

Pan lords are the typical left-over you can't easily eradicate with AOE. The reasons for dragonform are:

With high STR (you wear heavy armour not in dragonform), and high Unarmed Combat (you're pulling Zig XP so you can buff this), dragonform can do an *insane* amount of damage, and against highly resistant and armoured targets (the ones AOE fails on). You'll do a lot more damage then you will with a branded one-hander, and if you're not in dragon form, yes you ought to be using a shield.

So what about the defenses aspect of it? Are they lower? Yeah, they are. Consider that if you've ever read anything from me about strategy in this game, I'm a huge proponent of the value of high defenses over offense..... normally, in general. But, this particular type of situation doesn't fit in the normal bucket. After you've expended your mana, you just won't be dealing with huge waves of enemies, just fewer harder ones. In this case, having an extremely hard hitting melee offense that requires no mana combined with a very large pool of health may not have tons of sustainability against an onslaught, but a giant pool of health can be an effective buffer for a fight more limited in scope, particularly where the targets (Pan Lords) can deal all sorts of different types of damage that may or may not care all that much about your AC, EV and usual defenses anyhow.

Last but not least, you probably should have a life on kill god (Mak), and the increases offense which really is quite superb killing things quickly will still do two other things that at least help, (though the main points have already been previously made):
* Remove threats quickly (reducing incoming damage)
* Gain life from those kills

In summary: Is defense + AOE king? Well, yes it is! Are there any specific types of conditions where dragonform is still very effective? I believe so. For me it isn't just theory -- I'm stating these things from actual practice.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 215

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 00:52

Post Tuesday, 28th April 2020, 23:54

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

The main problem with dragonform is that statue form offers adequate offenses but also offers a godly AC total and doesn't nuke your EV, or screw with your resistances. Rare is it that the enemy will die fast-er enough with dragonform that you will end up taking less damage than with statue form.

Also dragon form doesn't get torment resistance, which some pan lords do have and is the biggest thing that ignores your defenses.
I'm with tasonir on this one.
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Barkeep

Posts: 4434

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 29th April 2020, 22:21

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

FR: Dragonform gets cleave
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 790

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Thursday, 30th April 2020, 11:57

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

plz no. Bites don't cleave. If dragon's too weak give it Archmagi and extra hp.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6317

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 30th April 2020, 23:40

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

petercordia wrote:plz no. Bites don't cleave. If dragon's too weak give it Archmagi and extra hp.

See also: Hydra form
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 5th May 2020, 18:17

Re: How can I get all skills to 27

petercordia wrote:plz no. Bites don't cleave. If dragon's too weak give it Archmagi and extra hp.

Dragon form already has +50% hp, the most of any form spell. I do think the spell is overall too weak, but adding even more hp on top of +50% would be a bit silly.

Personally I'd give it more ac, and some SH (Deflecting attacks with your scales/wings/tail/whatever). But I'm not sure there's enough of a consensus/general will to buff the spell, so dunno.

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