highLevel question: Naga in the zigs


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Temple Termagant

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Post Saturday, 27th July 2019, 21:05

highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Hi guys, so I decided to try out a new species in the zigs: Naga! I usually play Hill Orc, but I thought the extra bit of health and sInv would be helpful. Unfortunately, I've run into a problem. By the time I dive into my 10th zig (or so) the Ghost Moth floors are now so big that I can NOT simply just walk from end to end while invisible because Naga are just TOO SLOW! ugh! You can't Blink across because then you will glow from contamination. So usually I end up right in the middle of 100s of Ghost Moths with absolute NO mana. And to make matters worse, walking soooo slowly also gives time for the baddies to almost completely corrode my armor to basically ZERO. So there's no way I can just FIGHT my way out. So no mana, no AC, surrounded by 100s of baddies...I would naturally read an immolation scroll and get out of the situation that way, and that's what I've been doing, but that method is always a bit risky PLUS...what happens when I'm in zig 24? I can't rely on a scroll that doesn't replenish that quickly, and personally, I don't like relying on any method that depends on exhaustible resources anyway. So...the question: As Naga, how do you handle the Ghost Moth floors in zig 10+? thanks for your help guys!

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 27th July 2019, 21:28

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Could you post a character dump? I don't think I can offer advice, but I'm curious what a megazig Naga character looks like.

How do full-LOS spell combinations like Darkness+Glaciate, Toxic Radiance + Ignite Poison, or Ignition fare on ghost moth floors?
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 27th July 2019, 21:36

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

petercordia wrote:Could you post a character dump? I don't think I can offer advice, but I'm curious what a megazig Naga character looks like.

How do full-LOS spell combinations like Darkness+Glaciate, Toxic Radiance + Ignite Poison, or Ignition fare on ghost moth floors?


Seconded, a chardump would help.

Moths have rPois, so the second one isn't feasible. They have no SInv, I would rely on invisibility and ignition the most. Have enough targets in sight to blast the first batch dead, then the others will come to the source of the noise and get roasted too? This also helps with the lack of naga mobility, making noise so the enemies are drawn to the caster.
There is always something new to learn.

Temple Termagant

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Post Sunday, 28th July 2019, 05:43

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Hi guys,

Ok. So I'll post two char.dumps. The first one is my most recent Hill Orc character. It can give you an idea of what a zig fighter looks like once he's fully developed.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/malcoda/morgue-malcoda-20190719-032046.txt

Now I'll give you the dump of the character I'm currently developing, but am running into problems with the Ghost Moth floors. the Naga.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/malcoda/malcoda.txt

I read one the suggestions which is actually interesting. The idea that instead of ME moving forward sooooo slowly, I should just shatter in the beginning and let them come running to me and destroy them as they come. I think I'll try this. Although...i'm still skeptical. I miss my Hill Orc.

malcoda
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Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 28th July 2019, 09:14

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

malcoda wrote:
The idea that instead of ME moving forward sooooo slowly, I should just shatter in the beginning and let them come running to me and destroy them as they come. I think I'll try this. Although...i'm still skeptical. I miss my Hill Orc.

malcoda


Well, a great deal of strategy about naga games relies on having the rest of the dungeon come to you - this is especially true with NaAny^Cheibriados, who are pretty much giving the entire rest of the game more than a free turn of actions when moving. You can test out a great deal of stuff in wizard mode before you commit to actually playing in a certain way. The one above where I suggested ignition was assuming the moths were part of a spider-themed floor, where only entropic weavers (if I'm wrong, correct this) can see through invisibility. Ghost moths also appear on other floors so this is by no means failproof. Also, use darkness and fog scrolls in order to prevent the worst MP drains when it is to your advantage.

While on topic, I would also recommend to contact @tasonir for more naga-related wisdom and advice.
There is always something new to learn.

Temple Termagant

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Post Sunday, 28th July 2019, 14:42

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Thanks for the Naga advice. I'm currently in my 14th zig, so I'll be testing out your advice soon!!! ugh! Seriously though..I used to wait in anxiety for the panlords, now I dread the Ghost moth floors!!! crazy! :)

malcoda

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Post Sunday, 28th July 2019, 15:03

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

The combination of tons of corrosion and tons of MP drain on those floors can definitely leave you unable to kill things and with terrible defenses. Don't let it get to that point.

Use Invisibility and, while it lasts. Ignition, Tornado, etc. Kill the entropy weavers fast, e.g. with Ignition or Fire Storm. Try to have killed most of the weavers before Invisibility wears off, e.g. by walking to the middle of the map, then mop up the rest however, including with melee at 0MP, if necessary, since you won't be heavily corroded. You can use javelins of penetration to pick off any entropy weavers still left if you have 0MP.

If you do get to 0MP and heavy corrosion, you can try to teleport and hide, maybe with with fog, until it wears off, or blink to an exit.

I think those Spider floors are one of the more dangerous to a well-prepared zig-runner since you can't just walk to the middle and Tornado and melee until everything is dead.

Temple Termagant

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Post Wednesday, 31st July 2019, 14:37

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

I'm on zig 20 now. Although the ghost moth floor is always a bit tricky, it seems that the best course of action is to
1. ignition the initial turn (the room is completely full when you come down the stairs)
2. Stand and pick off the ghost moths as they come for as long as possible using spells, but eventually they'll be too many to handle.
3. turn on invis
4. Blink ONCE..and ONLY once...forward in the room.
5. Ignition again.
6. Then...I just stand there and make as much noise as I can so that the ghost moths come flying to me. (I've been yelling and funny enough..it does seem to draw them faster)
7. I wait till the screen is pretty much full and then hit ignition.
8. Repeat from step 6.
Results: By the time my invis has finally worn off, all the ghost moths (which move quickly) usually have come into my view to get burned up. It is true...most (if not ALL) of my AC is gone, but this is no problem because with the ghost moths gone the rest of the monsters fall to spells and really don't have a chance to even touch me.

Now I've done some testing with the evoke invis, and I've found that the number of turns can vary pretty drastically. Should it happen that my invis wears off too soon (with Ghost moths still swarming me) I can blink backwards to have a moment of privacy where I can drink a potion of cancellation to get back my AC and replenish some mana. Then I have a choice...if I think there really aren't that many ghost moths left, I can just pick them off as they come with spells, but if I know there are WAY too many left, I use the immolation trick (blink to the middle of the crowd, lose all mana, read immolation, blink to the edge of the crowd and kill something and then watch everything explode (which for some reason is much more satisfying than ignition itself!)

Now...cancellation potions are some of the rarest potions to find in the zig, but fortunately this occurrence of my INVIS wearing off way too quickly rarely happens, so my supply of potions hasn't dwindled yet.

soon I'll be going into zig 21 with hopes of finding that truly EPIC piece of equipment (but most likely find nothing better than I already have.)

Temple Termagant

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Post Tuesday, 6th August 2019, 18:18

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

I wanted to post an update to this thread. I'm heading into my 35th zig now. and I've learned a lot more since I've posted last regarding the Ghost Moths.

The first thing I've learned is that evoking Invis by using a mutation causes much more CONTAM than evoking Invis from a piece of equipment. Thus you can pretty much count on being able to blink twice if you use equipment Blink evoke without heavy CONTAM. After two blinks you can just stand there and let the fast Ghost moths come to you.

Now...most of the time, invis will wear off before you're done killing all the moths. This is especially true when the zig gets really big, so I've found a pretty comfortable way to handle the moths while you are NOT invis anymore. Cast darkness, and then just pick off the incoming moths as they come in to you using either Firestorm, or ignition: If the moth is alone, then firestorm, and if the moth is next to something else then ignition. Darkness is effective with Firestorm as you can kill Moths even before they come into your LoS. You just have to make sure you HAVE mana when they come into view. If you do run out of mana and they swarm you, all you have to do is ?blink back and regroup and start again at a position a bit back. You can do this about 3 times during the level if you should need it. Make sure you keep an eye on your darkness as if it ends, there could be a few too many moths that suddenly come into your LoS and you'll be drained (which will force you to drop back and regroup, and you want to fight against having to do this) so keep your darkness active.

The floors go much smoother now, and I don't dread them as much as I just don't like the time I need to spend on that floor.

I'm thinking about posting another article on how to handle the panlords floor. I've killed 4481 panlords so far, and I've learned a thing or two about that floor.

good luck guys,

malcoda

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/malcoda/malcoda.txt
Last edited by malcoda on Tuesday, 6th August 2019, 18:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 6th August 2019, 18:23

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Very cool progress. One thing I forgot to mention before: be really careful with negative- and abyss-themed floors. http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Silent_spectre
These are quite a bother to deal with without active PProj or {penetration} branded ranged stuff.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 7th August 2019, 00:06

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

I have to say I'm surprised to see an amulet of harm there, but then again, I've never done megazigs.
...MiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}
DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu
{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWr

Temple Termagant

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Post Wednesday, 7th August 2019, 13:20

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

In response to the Harm amulet: Oh...this item is an absolute necessity for a zig fighter. This amulet can raise your spell power from 200 to 260! That is a HUGE jump in max spell power. Without it, you'd be capped at 200 spell power and this is seriously lacking when it comes to some of the higher health creatures. At 260 spell power, you can kill Hell Sentinels in two shatters, reduce ancient liches to a shred of life with only one ignition, and most panlords will be killed after 3 glaciates. Actually, I usually stayed away from Harm when it first came out, not realizing it's full potential, but now...my amulet spot is absolutely reserved for Harm in the late game when I switch over to spells.

What you look for is the Harmulint. That's of course is a Harm amulet with Int+ on it.

good luck

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 7th August 2019, 22:31

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

malcoda wrote:This amulet can raise your spell power from 200 to 260! That is a HUGE jump in max spell power.
I'm not sure whether this is a misinterpretation of what harm does or a misinterpretation of what spell power does (in which case you're also ignoring the effect of AC, I guess), but either way, I love it.

Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 8th August 2019, 02:28

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

The way you handle huge zig levels requires a few things:
1) life on kill (Mak+necromutation)
2) method of gaining mana (sublimate or channel energy via staff)
3) firestorm at the edge of LOS (brings monsters to you and kill them before they deliver their payload)
4) tornado (to kill larger piles that get near you)
5) crystal spear or iron shot (ikill solo targets that are heavily resistant)

Other less critical tools:
aura of abjuration
dragon form (in place of crystal spear when mana is a big problem)
ozocubu's refrigeration (helps with orb of fire levels)
darkness (reduce LOS to the range of your AOE spells)
ignition (good all around)

Naga is a strong end-game race due to the high health, which is important. You noticed they are slow, so this is why you should be making noise and having monsters come to you (and then nuking them as they come in range)

Last but not least, the lowly fog scrolls are extremely powerful when tactically used properly (and fairly abundant). Use them to avoid taking damage and ill effects until things are in range to kill.

Keep your mana up. Staff of channeling is possibly the best thing to keep wielded at all times, keep topping off your mana. Stat sticks and enhancer staffs for specific big nuke spells are worth swapping back and forth between energy, usually.

Specifically for ghost moths, your best friend is tornado. Tornado kills them quite well, but keeps on killing (replenishing your life) while you channel to get mana back, even if it's just to cast one more level 9 spell. Secondarily is ignition.

Dragon form is probably the ultimate oh-crap last defense response when all else fails because of it's no-mana-required super destructive capabilities on everything no matter what it resists. In other words, it'll kill straggler pan lords which could otherwise soak up too much of your mana.

Temple Termagant

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Post Thursday, 8th August 2019, 19:48

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Hi Duvessa,

I read your post: "I'm not sure whether this is a misinterpretation of what harm does or a misinterpretation of what spell power does (in which case you're also ignoring the effect of AC, I guess), but either way, I love it."

I'm always finding out that I need to learn more about this game and mostly it's other players who straighten me out! So straighten me out :)

I was under the impression that Harm adds 30% to ALL damage including spells. This led me to believe that if I had maxed out my spell power to 200, then putting on a Harm amulet would bring that power to 260. Is this not a correct interpretation of its effect? It sure FEELS that way in game.

Also I thought spell power refers to the amount of damage your spells do? I don't think I'm wrong on that one.

I also don't understand the "ignoring the effect of AC" part of your comment...do you mean to say that taking into account the monsters AC, I'm not really able to get 260 spell power...or...I"m not sure what you mean.

But...either way...you've got my interest peaked. I'm heading into zig 40 on the akrasiac server, so I'd REALLY like to know if I'm doing something wrong.

thanks mate,

malcoda

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Post Thursday, 8th August 2019, 19:59

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Amulet of harm damage is applied after most other reductions (allegedly DD shaving is an exception). So you still cast at 200 spell power, and what you hit then takes 30% more damage than they'd have taken otherwise.

This will, for most values, give you different results than increasing power to 260 (damage doesn't always increase linearly with spell power, to put it mildly).

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Post Thursday, 8th August 2019, 20:45

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

malcoda wrote:Also I thought spell power refers to the amount of damage your spells do? I don't think I'm wrong on that one.
That's the part where you're wrong, I'm afraid. Spell power determines the damage of some spells, but the formula is never quite as simple as Damage = Spell power * X. For many spells the formula is close to that (if you ignore rounding) but has a constant added to it; that constant means a 30% increase in spell power does not increase your damage by 30%. For example, Ignition does 3d((10+floor(power/3))/3) damage; at 150 power it does 3d20 damage, and at 195 power (30% increase) it does 3d25 damage (only a 25% increase).
There is one damage spell without a constant factor in its damage: Orb of Destruction. However, this spell's damage is only linear with spell power at 30 power and below, and it is heavily aliased, so it still happens that there is no point where a 30% increase in power will increase its damage by 30%.
malcoda wrote:I also don't understand the "ignoring the effect of AC" part of your comment...do you mean to say that taking into account the monsters AC, I'm not really able to get 260 spell power...or...I"m not sure what you mean.
Harm applies to your "final" damage after applying AC, so even if 200 -> 260 spell power corresponded to a 30% increase in spell damage, it still wouldn't quite be equivalent to harm against monsters with nonzero AC, unless it's one of the few spells that doesn't check AC.

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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 9th August 2019, 18:24

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Thanks to all the responses for this Harm issue. I've never been much of a "numbers" player, and have mostly learned by trial and error over the years, and how certain things "feel" in game. The one thing I can say for sure, is that before I put on the Harm amulet it seemed it was so difficult to kill the tougher monsters fast enough. I was always having troubles in the larger zigs. Now...with the Harm amulet on, I would swear that monsters go down so much faster. Take for instance the Orb of Fire level...that level used to be so tough as it seemed like those things were just invincible, but now...I can mow them down before they even have a chance to get close to me.

Also the panlords level. That level is always full of surprises especially when they get to stand next to you and "touch" you. Without the harm on, they would always overwhelm my position and start doing chaotic things to me, but with the Harm on, they are pretty much a block of ice in 3 turns.

I'll keep you posted on my progress as I get into the 50+ zigs...coming soon. (although summer vacation is over, and school starts on Monday :( bummer. )

Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 9th August 2019, 21:25

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

30% more damage inflicted adds up quickly, especially when you involve AoE. Monster defenses are usually lower than player defenses so the damage differential skews in favor of the player significantly. Even more so when the things threatening you are best handled quickly since more defenses won't do much.

That said, it does put you at greater risk of damnation/torment style attacks, if for some reason you can't kill the enemies faster by some turns to compensate the risk. Though if you're throwing shatters and firestorms around you are probably putting out enough post-modifier damage on enough monsters for harm to come out pretty far ahead.

Temple Termagant

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Post Saturday, 10th August 2019, 15:27

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

In regards to the Torment/Damnation issue: Both of these sources of damage aren't really an issue if handled correctly. First of all, I play in licheform so there is no tormenting that I have to be careful of. Of course, if I forget to keep a watchful eye on the duration of my lichform, I could lose the lichform while silenced and get tormented horribly. (That actually happened once, but just in time I killed the silencer and lich'd up again...mistakes are inevitable)

As for Damnation, the only real guys I have to watch out for are those crazy Hellions. They'll throw damnation at you no matter what the situation, so you gotta take those guys out first. The Brimstone fiends and the hell sentinels, if played correctly, will never throw damnation at you at all, so with no Hellions on the board...I'm good to go...so long as I don't make mistakes.

The real issue is Dispel Undead. The nightmare floor is the silenced Tartarus floor. Tzitzimitl are everywhere, and the whole floor will be silenced for a good number of turns before you can clear out an "un" silenced corner. The best strategy for zig fighting is to know who your friends are. On this floor...it's the cursed toes. They will protect you from most of the dispel undead by surrounding you with mushrooms...so you do NOT want to kill your cursed toe friends.

The other rough time comes when you get the triple -wiz on you. This, of course, can be sufficiently countered by wearing double Wiz rings, but it may take a while before you can make a double switch possible with your character. Fortunately, I've got that covered, but even still, casting at 17% can be annoying at best, and barely death defying at worse...

Anyway...I love my Harmulint. I've got Harm with int+7 right now, but I'm hoping to find something better soon.

malcoda

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2019, 05:25

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Just to put a final note on this thread. I finally was killed on floor 15 of my 55th ziggurat by the panlords. I killed over 10,000 panlords before they got me.

It was a strange floor. I took a pie in the face and got silenced about 3 turns in. Then I got petrified during that silence. While stoned I took 267 damage. When stone wore off, I was in silence. I only had 66 points left, so I took a javelin shot at the silencer, but they did 22 points of damage, so I tried to switch rings (I had put on my -tele ring as usual) hoping I could blink out of silence, but I took 44 points exactly to death while I switched rings.

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/malcoda/morgue-malcoda-20190903-045243.txt

good luck to all my zig brothers and sisters,

taking a much needed rest now,

malcoda

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bel

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2019, 17:24

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

Nice run.

I would probably have ditched the Harm amulet.

You had potions of cancellation: you could have cancelled petrify, maybe?

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Post Wednesday, 4th September 2019, 02:01

Re: highLevel question: Naga in the zigs

bel wrote:You had potions of cancellation: you could have cancelled petrify, maybe?

  Code:
@: lich-form, very slightly contaminated, slowed, silenced, invisible, deflect

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