Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword


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Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 699

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Tuesday, 23rd July 2019, 15:06

Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

Hi Guys,

Are daggers that much better for stabbing than Short Swords? Check below dump. +3 short sword of flaming, +1 short sword of draining or +0 dagger (And can enchant it)

Bear in mind its mainly only for petrify stabs and I'm not skilling for a stabby build.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.24-a0-520-g8fd06ad0bc (webtiles) character file.

delarado the Geomancer (DDEE)                       Turns: 6331, Time: 00:35:57

Health: 18/62      AC:  7    Str: 12    XL:     8   Next: 32%
Magic:  11/11      EV: 12    Int: 18    God:    Makhleb [......]
Gold:   321        SH:  0    Dex: 13    Spells: 6/12 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   z - +3 short sword (flame)
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   (no shield)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   t - +0 leather armour
rPois    .         Spirit   .   l - +2 helmet
rElec    .         Reflect  .   (no cloak)
rCorr    +         Harm     .   (no gloves)
MR       ++...                  r - +0 pair of boots
Stlth    ++........             (no amulet)
HPRegen  0.00/turn              m - ring of resist corrosion
MPRegen  0.12/turn              y - ring of protection from magic

@: non-regenerating
A: damage resistance, heal wounds, sense surroundings 1, no regeneration
a: Heal Wounds, Renounce Religion


You are on level 6 of the Dungeon.
You worship Makhleb.
Makhleb is noncommittal.
You are very hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 7 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 321 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +0 club
 e - a +0 dagger
 n - a +1 short sword of draining
 q - a cursed +0 hunting sling
 z - a +3 short sword of flaming (weapon)
Missiles
 b - 37 stones (quivered)
 o - 15 poisoned darts
 p - 3 silver boomerangs
Armour
 l - a +2 helmet (worn)
 r - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
 t - a +0 leather armour (worn)
 C - a scale mail
Jewellery
 m - a ring of resist corrosion (left hand)
 y - a ring of protection from magic (right hand)
Scrolls
 g - 2 scrolls of immolation
 h - a scroll of amnesia
 i - a scroll of fog
 j - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon
 k - 2 scrolls labeled TEIFYI FAUSYKUST
 s - 2 scrolls labeled DIFYIHUUTI
 u - a scroll labeled MUENEA KURCHAOM
 B - 6 scrolls labeled YGGUELIAKE
 D - a scroll labeled COKIUD ARHYIPT
 E - 2 scrolls labeled QAWKOMEIBB
Potions
 c - 4 potions of haste
 f - a glowing yellow potion
 v - a potion of flight
 w - 2 potions of mutation
 x - 2 potions of heal wounds
 A - 2 potions of curing
Comestibles
 d - 10 rations


   Skills:
 - Level 2.1 Dodging
 - Level 4.0 Stealth
 + Level 2.7 Spellcasting
 - Level 3.2 Conjurations
 + Level 4.1 Transmutations
 + Level 10.4 Earth Magic


You have 6 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sandblast             Erth           #####.       1%          1    #......
b - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      ####....     1%          2    ##.....
c - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ####..       4%          3    ###....

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Lee's Rapid Deconstruct  Erth           #####.....   9%          5    ######.
 Petrify                  Tmut/Erth      ####....     11%         4    #####..


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (6/15)             Temple (1/1) D:4         

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Hepliaklqana
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Wu Jian
Xom
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:4 (   D:6 (


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to damage.
You can heal yourself by infusing magical energy.
You passively map a small area around you.
You do not regenerate.


Message History

Aim: a steam dragon (almost dead, catching its breath)
The blast of sand hits the steam dragon!
You kill the steam dragon!
Makhleb accepts your kill.
Your Transmutations skill increases to level 4!
b - 36 stones
You are engulfed in a cloud of scalding steam.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You start resting.
Magic restored.
Search for what [Enter for "mak", or ? for help]? armo
You start waiting.
You are feeling very hungry.
Partly explored, can't reach some items and places.
Things that are here:
a +0 hand axe; a +0 war axe
You see here a +0 club.
b - 37 stones (gained 1)
Done exploring.
Saving game... please wait.

*           , *
                ,,
             , ,
      * , #####
         ##≈≈.##
       *##≈.≈≈.##       ##
        #PP...P≈#########P
        #P.....≈PP≈P[PPP≈.
       *#@................
        ##P...P≈≈≈≈.≈.####
         #PP≈≈^P#######.##
*        ###^≈###..## #..#
           #### ##..###...
                 ##..###..
                 ##...####
                ##...## #.
               ##..###  #.


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  2 steam dragons (D:6)
  Menkaure (D:4)
  A sky beast (D:5)
  2 ogres (D:4)
  A big kobold (Sewer)
  A scorpion (D:4)
  2 howler monkeys
  A crimson imp (D:6)
  A hound (D:5)
  An orc wizard (D:4)
  A bullfrog skeleton (D:5)
  2 orc priests (D:4)
  An iguana (D:6)
  2 worker ants
  Natasha (thrice) (D:4)
  A hound skeleton (D:4)
  2 adders
  A river rat (Sewer)
  6 worms
  4 leopard geckos
  8 orcs
  6 bats
  3 giant cockroaches
  6 goblins
  12 hobgoblins
  A jackal (Sewer)
  10 kobolds
  3 quokkas
  2 ball pythons (D:1)
  5 frilled lizards
  12 rats
104 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  6 fungi (D:6)
6 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 110 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | delarado the Deep Dwarf Earth Elementalist began the quest
                  | for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 15/15 MP: 3/3
   186 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 14/22 MP: 2/4
   751 | D:1      | Upgraded the game from 0.24-a0-517-gd52e2fb918 to
                  | 0.24-a0-520-g8fd06ad0bc
   836 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 18/28 MP: 3/5
   994 | D:2      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  1117 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
  1233 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Passwall
  1242 | D:2      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  1634 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Transmutations
  1937 | D:3      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  1993 | D:3      | Found a glowing drain.
  2028 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  2037 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 4. HP: 20/36 MP: 0/6
  2139 | Sewer    | Noticed a big kobold
  2518 | Sewer    | Killed a big kobold
  2518 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 6 in Earth Magic
  2518 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 5. HP: 23/42 MP: 0/7
  2672 | Sewer    | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  3472 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Stone Arrow
  3504 | D:4      | Noticed Menkaure
  3535 | D:4      | Reached skill level 7 in Earth Magic
  3535 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 49/49 MP: 1/8
  3578 | D:4      | Killed Menkaure
  3578 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Earth Magic
  3650 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
  3677 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 55/55 MP: 6/9
  3758 | D:4      | Found Bobb's Weapon Emporium.
  3801 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3810 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  3874 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Makhleb the Destroyer
  4078 | D:4      | You fall into a shaft and drop 1 floor!
  4078 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4145 | D:5      | Reached skill level 9 in Earth Magic
  4394 | D:5      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  4396 | D:5      | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council.
  4424 | D:5      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  4627 | D:4      | Noticed Natasha
  4641 | D:4      | Killed Natasha
  5017 | D:4      | Noticed Natasha
  5021 | D:4      | Killed Natasha
  5087 | D:4      | Found Bobb's Weapon Emporium.
  5090 | D:4      | Noticed Natasha
  5094 | D:4      | Killed Natasha
  5163 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5534 | D:6      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  5644 | D:6      | Found Veivud's Antique Weapon Emporium.
  5654 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 54/62 MP: 1/10
  5658 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 |
---------------+-------------------------+-----
Stealth        |  3     4                |  4.0
Earth Magic    |        5  6  7  8  9 10 | 10.4
Transmutations |        1  2  3        4 |  4.1
Conjurations   |                 1  3    |  3.2
Spellcasting   |                       2 |  2.7
Dodging        |                         |  2.1

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |    28 |       |       ||    28
       Club              |     3 |       |       ||     3
       Short sword       |     2 |    10 |     2 ||    14
Throw: Stone             |    52 |    44 |    30 ||   126
 Cast: Sandblast         |    59 |    51 |    36 ||   146
       Stone Arrow       |       |       |    20 ||    20
 Abil: Heal Wounds       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |     5 |     2 |     1 ||     8
       Potion            |       |     3 |       ||     3
 Stab: Sleeping          |     2 |       |       ||     2
  Eat: Chunk             |     5 |     6 |    10 ||    21
Armor: Robe              |     7 |       |       ||     7
       Leather armour    |     3 |     9 |     4 ||    16
Dodge: Dodged            |    35 |    10 |     5 ||    50

Table legend:
 A = Non-vault XP
 B = Vault XP
 C = Vault XP percentage of total XP
 D = Non-vault monster count
 E = Vault monster count
 F = Vault count percentage of total count

                 A         B        C        D         E        F   
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------
      Total |    1158 |     715 |  38.2 |      87 |      17 |  16.3
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------
        D:1 |      38 |       0 |   0.0 |      21 |       0 |   0.0
        D:2 |      29 |       0 |   0.0 |      18 |       0 |   0.0
        D:3 |      89 |      10 |  10.1 |      17 |       2 |  10.5
        D:4 |     588 |     210 |  26.3 |      19 |       2 |   9.5
        D:5 |     227 |       0 |   0.0 |       4 |       0 |   0.0
        D:6 |     187 |     368 |  66.3 |       8 |       2 |  20.0
      Sewer |       0 |     127 | 100.0 |       0 |      11 | 100.0
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Tuesday, 23rd July 2019, 15:13

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

yes, daggers deal almost twice as much stabbing damage as short swords. That's before brands come into effect, and the enchantment doesn't really matter.

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Airwolf, bel, delarado

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 2117

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Tuesday, 23rd July 2019, 18:19

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

Dagger is better.

For many short blade specialists, any short blade can usually kill a sleeping/paralyzed monster in one hit. Petrified monsters usually go down in one or two hits. For confused monsters, you might want to use a dagger, because it deals more stabbing damage; and it has shorter delay, so you can get more stab attempts in any given time period.

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delarado

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6250

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 23rd July 2019, 19:39

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

At one point, I did some code-digging, and came up with that, while daggers *do* do twice the damage that other short blades do, there's a cap to the bonus damage from stabbing. That hits around 10 average between stealth and short blades skill for daggers, and 20 for other short blades. (Maybe that was 12/24, I don't recall now, it's been a long time)

So if the average of your stealth+short blades skill is ridiculously high, non-dagger short blades might be better than daggers for damage. Of course that happens well above the "it's worth it XP-wise" point, so I don't know why anyone would train that much, unless they were just really really bored.

However, the amount of damage a *non* dagger does on a typical stab, with normal skill levels is still very good, even on a confusion/petrifying/petrified/invis stab. For those stabs, it's usually more important to get more *attempts* than it is that each attempt does the most damage. That's why I prefer a dagger of speed first, and a quick blade second, other short blades of speed third, non-speedy dagger fourth for my stabbers. Beyond Speed, brand really doesn't do much unless you're going to use it as a non-stabby melee weapon (in which case, elec (or pain) is probably your best call, a qblade^elec is really nice because even if you're trying to confuse stab something, if you just plain old kill it with elec procs, then it doesn't matter if you fail all your stab rolls)

Speed is less important on distraction stabs (because a single stab usually makes something un-distracted) but since distraction stabs suck anyway, you shouldn't be optimizing for the 'what to use for distraction stabs' cases

For sleep/paralysis stabs, you should be doing enough damage to one-shot stuff even with a non-dagger, but you can get there with less XP using a dagger, but since you want the additional stab chances that come with min delay for non-sleep stabs, you'll probably be spending that XP at some point anyway, unless stabbing is just a sideline for some other damage-doing thing.
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delarado

Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Wednesday, 24th July 2019, 09:31

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

Siegurt wrote:, unless stabbing is just a sideline for some other damage-doing thing.


Earth Elementalist.

For dangerous things, LRD/Stone Arrow until they get close, then petrify and run until I can stab them to death.

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Wednesday, 24th July 2019, 09:46

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

delarado wrote:
Siegurt wrote:, unless stabbing is just a sideline for some other damage-doing thing.


Earth Elementalist.

EE can make great stabbers, though DDEE less so.
I think for an DDEE a vampiric short blade would be ideal.
delarado wrote:For dangerous things, LRD/Stone Arrow until they get close, then petrify and run until I can stab them to death.

This sounds suboptimal. Why semi-kill things with direct damage, then hexes? Pure hexes and pure direct damage both sound more convincing. (Choosing which one to use based on MR, hp, and other things.) BTW, sandblast deals more damage than Stone Arrow against lightly armoured targets.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 466

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 24th July 2019, 16:39

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

Speed is less important on distraction stabs (because a single stab usually makes something un-distracted) but since distraction stabs suck anyway, you shouldn't be optimizing for the 'what to use for distraction stabs' cases


Speed is still better for distraction stabbing anyway, because distraction typically doesn't last long even if you straight up miss and speed gives you more chances to proc a stab. Speed also has excellent synergy with confusing touch, which is one of the only ways to set up a decent % of monsters for stabbing.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6250

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 24th July 2019, 17:14

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

TheMeInTeam wrote:
Speed is less important on distraction stabs (because a single stab usually makes something un-distracted) but since distraction stabs suck anyway, you shouldn't be optimizing for the 'what to use for distraction stabs' cases


Speed is still better for distraction stabbing anyway, because distraction typically doesn't last long even if you straight up miss and speed gives you more chances to proc a stab. Speed also has excellent synergy with confusing touch, which is one of the only ways to set up a decent % of monsters for stabbing.

Yes, I agree "less important" does not mean "not at all important", the *percentage by which it's still better than everything else* is just slightly smaller. However, distraction stabs suck so much that worrying about which brand you're using for them is silly, and you should be instead worry about trying to find better ways to stab things, like using confusing touch to get confusion stabs (For which speed is definitely super good, although polearms to get confusing touch off at range 2 are pretty good too)
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 24th July 2019, 18:31

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

There are a few classes of monsters where distraction stabs are all you're likely to get. OOF immediately comes to mind, but stuff like ancient liches, some fiends/pan lords/hell lords, and some uniques come to mind. Some of that stuff is magic immune outright and rPois/immune with enough HD that CT is either impossible or would take dozen+ turns on average before you expect to actually confuse...and they're far too dangerous to wait that long.

It's true that there are often better ways to kill these monsters, even for stabbers, but the semi-edge case of "stabber that goes hexes has mana vipers and uses them to distraction stab OOFs) isn't THAT rare, and it's good to know what brand is best because OOFs are both annoying and dangerous. Mana vipers cut into that with their bite, but you still need to actually kill the thing.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6250

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 24th July 2019, 18:48

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

TheMeInTeam wrote:There are a few classes of monsters where distraction stabs are all you're likely to get. OOF immediately comes to mind, but stuff like ancient liches, some fiends/pan lords/hell lords, and some uniques come to mind. Some of that stuff is magic immune outright and rPois/immune with enough HD that CT is either impossible or would take dozen+ turns on average before you expect to actually confuse...and they're far too dangerous to wait that long.

It's true that there are often better ways to kill these monsters, even for stabbers, but the semi-edge case of "stabber that goes hexes has mana vipers and uses them to distraction stab OOFs) isn't THAT rare, and it's good to know what brand is best because OOFs are both annoying and dangerous. Mana vipers cut into that with their bite, but you still need to actually kill the thing.

I find it's faster to actually kill OOF with a non shortblade (a nice double blade or demon blade works well and pairs well with the setup I usually have on my stabbers) than it is with a dagger with distraction stabs.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 24th July 2019, 20:30

Re: Stab:Dagger Vs Short Sword

I find it's faster to actually kill OOF with a non shortblade (a nice double blade or demon blade works well and pairs well with the setup I usually have on my stabbers) than it is with a dagger with distraction stabs.


That's assuming you've dumped the XP into a demon blade or especially a double blade. Some stabbers have competent aptitudes in both short and long blades, others do not and/or would require you to 2h the long blade when you're otherwise using a shield.

In many cases even spell investment would outperform demon blade vs OOF, depending on species/what is available. Plus good demon/double blades are no guarantee, especially the latter.

Distraction stabs w/o summons are fine too, especially if the summons themselves are contributing (mana vipers are quite good in this scenario since they interrupt OOF attack and even do some damage). Good enough that I'm not convinced I'd want to train long blades up just for this.

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