sudden death chalange week 2

[petercordia]

for those who don't know, crawl sudden death challenge (CSDC) is found on http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~ebering/cra ... index.html
6 consecutive weeks there is a race-background combo you're encouraged to play, and there are additional challenges, such as worshipping particular gods and getting the 1st rune without going into lair.

CSDC imposes a Kobold Gladiator this week, with the gods Dithmenos, Ru, Uskayaw. The challenge is to get a rune with having all skills < 11.
I haven't started yet, and would appreciate advise for strategical decisions.

For me the most intuitive gameplan is to start with a short-blade, then take Ru and transition to crossbows.
I would consider Uskayaw, but I got killed as a direct result of him the 2 last times I played with him. Dith sounds weak, although I have no experience with him.
I have no idea which stat to pump in the early game.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I think the safest option is to analyze games where players already got tier 2 bonus (there are a few already).

[TheMeInTeam]

I choked my run. I regret going usk, I didn't have Ru before D:7 so I should have taken Dith. I got random energy'd hit many times by a hydra, not quite 100 - 0 but basically. Can't lapse in concentration and allow them into melee, if you do you can just die.

Ru is really good if you can find early. Kobold can stab all game if you get the spells, and having apoc in your back pocket is still nice. I don't think you need to transition to xbow, but you can. Could also transition to magic that you don't sac.

[acoolguy]

I think in terms of god choice, Dith > Ru >> Usk. Both Ru and Dith are slow gods where the main benefit occur pretty late. Dith is actually really strong in general - he just isn't used quite as heavily as in a normal game as you don't need to ninja. I have a practice run where I tested out Dith and I was able to go to Snake 4. Without clearing any of it, I just shadow formed and hasted and walked in to take the rune with a few shadow steps. Here is the run: https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/ba ... 145005.txt.

In terms of gods, I think Dith lends itself to the reach Zot before XL20 bonus (and win <40k turns). One super impressive completed game is this one: https://webzook.net/soup/morgue//0.23/E ... 141253.txt which actually just ended up finishing the game at level 20. An early Ru maybe worth it if going for the ascetic rune.

My current CSDC is pretty nuts with a +8 int spear with evocable invis, the necromancy book, and the summoning book all before lair.

[petercordia]

Very interesting. That completed game looks like a sleep-stab build, and I was told those builds don't work. He somehow used stealth, show step and shadow form to dive Depths and Zot and grab the rune. Could someone tell me what the tactics are for such an approach? I'm only really familiar with the tactics for clearing everything in my path.

[acoolguy]

Sleep stabs builds do work with Dith though it is generally is more challenging to plan. Dynast does a bunch of low level SpEn runs on stream sometimes. Here is an example: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/415561511

[sanka]

I would not call SpEn a "sleep stab build", since it starts with all tools needed to stab when sleep stab fails. SpGl of Dith would be different, although invisibility is strong.

Anyway, does anybody knows if crosstraining counts as base skill level for the purposes of the challenge? In other words, can you reach 14 effective level of staves skill by training maces and polearms to 10.9 as well, while still keeping the conduct?

[acoolguy]

That would work. Its only the base skill level that matters. I died this CSDC after getting the T2 bonus in Snake attempting to ninja the rune in a bad snake layout. (The one with two lungs of greater nagas and another filled to the brim with snakes. I didn't have apportation and attempted to blink in and find an empty space, but shadow form ran out before my tele and I died.

[petercordia]

Is it good for the purpose of this challenge to leave part of the early dungeon unexplored?
Most of the wins don't appear to do it, so I guess not, but I don't really understand why.

[sanka]

The XP values increase later on, so if you fear of having no skills to train and had to go over 10 levels with some then leaving out XP early does not really make sense. Instead, you should play normally till you are strong enough to get a rune and then dive.

It is strange to me that Dith is considered better than Ru for this challenge. Ru at max piety is extremely strong, to the point that you could get a rune by using apocalypse alone if you wish (not that you need to, since the passive power is strong enough as well). Dith may allow you to steal a rune, but with Ru you can simply kill everything.

I personally skipped D12->D15 and dived Swamp, and did not run out of useful skills - I haven't even used cross training to train useless weapon skills with some benefit, and I sacrificed armour and some useful magic skills as well (haven't trained them). I cleared all of dungeon up to D11, all of Lair, and all of Orc. I admit that I have been lucky with items and getting the easiest lair branch.

[acoolguy]

This challenge is a bit complicated as it ultimately depends on what you want to go for. I think Ru is stronger than Dith for the T2 bonus, Ru is stronger than Dith in general, an early Ru is better for an ascetic rune attempt (though it would be difficult to get on a weak character). I do think that Dith, is stronger for an XL20 Zot attempt/a win in <40k turns. Ultimately, I feel like Dith is stronger than Ru for this challenge, as both gods don't really help too much in the early game (at lower levels of piety) and getting the T2 bonus is much easier than last week (though early game is harder). I feel like Dith enables more one-time bonuses than Ru, which is why I chose him.

[sanka]

What is an ascetic rune attempt?

If you want to go to Zot at XL 20 than Dith could be stronger, I agree. I never tried to steal the orb, but I guess stealth helps a lot.

[acoolguy]

Get a rune without using scrolls and potions. Probably the hardest CSDC one time bonus. I've never tried a low level game either but I've seen attempts.

[petercordia]

I tried to go for an ascetic rune, (with an early Ru,) but then I got lethally poisoned by bees.
I was still alive, but I had to break the no-potion conduct. With better tactics I could have avoided the situation.

Edit to avoid double post:
In the end I got killed by Aizul. I was forced to fight because I was out of position, hoping to stab her. I'm sure I could have managed the fight better, perhaps by using more consumables. Even so, I don't feel particularly bad about that fight. I felt really weak. I was running out of !heal wounds, ?teleport (after using 4 in the abyss), and wand charges. I had multiple near-death experiences. I must have made some strategical errors. In case anyone is interested in giving advise, here is the dump: https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... 154201.txt