The Tavern

Thanks!
Just regarding amnesia fireball: I don't really have the spell points for ignition, and the servitor does seem to use fireball to good use, deleting it would leave him with only lrd as an aoe - but that would be your choice?

onomastikon wrote:Thanks!
Just regarding amnesia fireball: I don't really have the spell points for ignition, and the servitor does seem to use fireball to good use, deleting it would leave him with only lrd as an aoe - but that would be your choice?

Well, taking out Fireball would bring the slots from 7 to 12, spend 8 on Ignition and 1 on butterflies. About the Servitor, many demons are resistant or outright immune to fire damage - which is where having IS and LCS really hits them hard. Besides, with Ignition you cast overlapping Fireballs on everything in LOS: I'd say that is more than enough AoE for your caster

Still not sure: is the racial experience modifier (e.g. - 1 for DE) a factor only for gaining character levels (1-27) or does this factor into all experience gained, by that I mean affecting the rate at which skill levels are raised? Up until recently I assumed the former, thus believing that for 3 rune games this trait was more impacting than for longer games (in which you reach 27 char level cap much earlier than the game is over) but now I'm not so sure. Thanls in advance!

onomastikon wrote:Still not sure: is the racial experience modifier (e.g. - 1 for DE) a factor only for gaining character levels (1-27) or does this factor into all experience gained, by that I mean affecting the rate at which skill levels are raised? Up until recently I assumed the former, thus believing that for 3 rune games this trait was more impacting than for longer games (in which you reach 27 char level cap much earlier than the game is over) but now I'm not so sure. Thanls in advance!

It's for Levels, not skills.

If I transform myself through ice form or lignification and lose thereby equipment slots, will I also immediately lose MP Boni if I had a staff of power equipped? I'm guessing yes, but I'd rather wait to hear your advice before panicking - currently in a bad spot in the tomb...

onomastikon wrote:If I transform myself through ice form or lignification and lose thereby equipment slots, will I also immediately lose MP Boni if I had a staff of power equipped? I'm guessing yes, but I'd rather wait to hear your advice before panicking - currently in a bad spot in the tomb...

Tree/ Stone/ Lich form can hold weapons and shields, so your staff is still equipped and the MP bar is unchanged. Spider/ Ice/ Dragon form melds weapons, so you will lose the bonus max MP. A reduction in max MP doesn't mean you also lose current MP unless it's under what the new maximum would be: melding your staff with 52/57 will reduce down to 42/42, but melding with 32/57 results in 32/42.

Sorry, does Repulsion Field (from scarf of repulsion for example) stack with Deflect MIssiles (from spell)?
I had a scarf of repulsion on and saw Rmsl, and was finally able to cast Defl Missiles, and now have the status effect DMSL, yey, but no longer see the Rmsl status. I remove the scarf, and get the message "the haze of your repulsion field disappears", but no change in the status bar, and put the scarf back on and get "you are surrounded by a repulsion field", which appears as if the two statuses stack, but maybe this is an illusion or a misunderstanding of the text. Any clearup greatly appreciated, I would otherwise wear a different cloak thingy. Thank you!

onomastikon wrote:Sorry, does Repulsion Field (from scarf of repulsion for example) stack with Deflect MIssiles (from spell)?
I had a scarf of repulsion on and saw Rmsl, and was finally able to cast Defl Missiles, and now have the status effect DMSL, yey, but no longer see the Rmsl status. I remove the scarf, and get the message "the haze of your repulsion field disappears", but no change in the status bar, and put the scarf back on and get "you are surrounded by a repulsion field", which appears as if the two statuses stack, but maybe this is an illusion or a misunderstanding of the text. Any clearup greatly appreciated, I would otherwise wear a different cloak thingy. Thank you!

Short answer: no.

Repel missiles was a spell in earlier versions (level 2 if I remember), and Deflect was the higher end version of that protective buff at level 6. Think of the difference between static discharge and chain lightning, it's somewhat like that. RMsl is permanent with the scarf, but Deflect will take priority when you're being shot at. When both are available, the stronger buff is shown on your status bar: this is the DMsl, until it is depleted and your status will revert to RMsl. Cloaks are generally preferable to scarves because of AC anyway, so you might as well switch to it.

Is the wiki entry for Cheibriados halfway up to date? The entry says valid for 0.17, and I came to Stone Soup at the current version. This is my first time trying Chei, and my second attempt with my moron to attempt to get the Abyssal rune, and I notice: No mention in-game of Chei's ability to passively slow the spawn and change rate of the Abyss, nor do I notice any difference in either of those compared to my other chars. Hence my question: Does the passive slowing of abyss spawn and change rate mentioned on the wiki still apply and I only fail to notice it because of RNJesus or my subjective idiocy?

onomastikon wrote:Is the wiki entry for Cheibriados halfway up to date? The entry says valid for 0.17, and I came to Stone Soup at the current version. This is my first time trying Chei, and my second attempt with my moron to attempt to get the Abyssal rune, and I notice: No mention in-game of Chei's ability to passively slow the spawn and change rate of the Abyss, nor do I notice any difference in either of those compared to my other chars. Hence my question: Does the passive slowing of abyss spawn and change rate mentioned on the wiki still apply and I only fail to notice it because of RNJesus or my subjective idiocy?

I think (and I might be misremembering it now), that the intent of Chei's "passive slow down" of that stuff is to negate any additional effects coming from the additional turns from slow movement, so that the net impact is that the experience of the abyss for Chei worshippers is about the same as it is for everyone else. So I would say if the abyss seems normal to you, it's probably still in effect

The wiki entry for "death channel" says that the spirits created with the spell are intelligent and will follow the user up and down stairs. I memorized this spell for the first time before attempting the Zigurrat and am quite dissapointed to see that none of the creatures follow me downwards. I should say that I have tried this now on about 20 floors and have had spirits with all sorts of intelligence, so I have not just been reanimating idiots.

Is this failure to follow because ...
1. the wiki is incorrect or outdated?
2. the stairs of the zigurrat have some special property which prohibits them from doing so?
3. something else?

Sadly, I have no scrolls of amnesia to rectify my mistake now, but perhaps I can glean some information for the future and/or correct the wiki entry.

thank you in advance

Yes, there was a change many versions ago so that temporary summons and derived undead (skeletons, zombies, simulcra, spectral) disappear when you change floors. Permanent allies (Hep's ancestor, Beogh's orc allies, Yred's undead allies) do not disappear.

Thanks.
I don't feel competent enough to edit the wiki and claim that it is up to date for .23, but I could at least delete the one sentence regarding followers. Perhaps you could use the best formulation? I don't know if that then counts as having the article be up to date for .23.
For me, by the way, too late, my Gnoll of Chei died with 6 runes on level 21 of the Zig, he met 11 orbs of fire (together with a bunch of lesser stuff like balrogs and whatnot) and ended up killed by the last one ...

onomastikon wrote:Thanks.
I don't feel competent enough to edit the wiki and claim that it is up to date for .23, but I could at least delete the one sentence regarding followers. Perhaps you could use the best formulation?

Done.

Am I the only person who finds falling through shafts quintupally annoying when playing a fragile flying creature such as a Tengu? I have now fallen through the fourth (including twice in Lair 2), and find my ability to suspend disbelief suffering greatly from the fact that my dude flies. Has there been any discussion about having the ability to fly somehow mitigate shafts?

onomastikon wrote:Am I the only person who finds falling through shafts quintupally annoying when playing a fragile flying creature such as a Tengu? I have now fallen through the fourth (including twice in Lair 2), and find my ability to suspend disbelief suffering greatly from the fact that my dude flies. Has there been any discussion about having the ability to fly somehow mitigate shafts?

I remember a long time ago, flight did prevent triggering shafts. This meant that the player should keep evoking (or casting, as flight was a spell at that time) flight when exploring, which was really tedious, so the interaction was removed.

stormdragon wrote:
onomastikon wrote:Am I the only person who finds falling through shafts quintupally annoying when playing a fragile flying creature such as a Tengu? I have now fallen through the fourth (including twice in Lair 2), and find my ability to suspend disbelief suffering greatly from the fact that my dude flies. Has there been any discussion about having the ability to fly somehow mitigate shafts?

I remember a long time ago, flight did prevent triggering shafts. This meant that the player should keep evoking (or casting, as flight was a spell at that time) flight when exploring, which was really tedious, so the interaction was removed.

That does, however, call into question what shafts do that teleport traps do not do...and the tedium of constantly wearing a -tele swap item any time it's available if you're not formicid...

stormdragon wrote:I remember a long time ago, flight did prevent triggering shafts. This meant that the player should keep evoking (or casting, as flight was a spell at that time) flight when exploring, which was really tedious, so the interaction was removed.

Perhaps only permanent flight could provide immunity to shafts (the Watsonian explanation is left as an exercise for the reader) which would remove the tedium.

The context of my original remark was also from the perspective of a tengu player with permaflight. (also some items provide this as well...)

So I want to try something new and am having some difficulty understanding Ashenzari. I find little indication of what exactly he does and requires in game. I have two questions, since the wiki seems to be up to date but maybe it is a problem with my language skills:
1. The wiki says boni Ash gives increase the more slots you have partially or fully bound. The majority of the table listed there is taken up with "armour", for which I assume this means the body armour slot. But since you cannot get light, medium, or heavy encumberance on any slot but body, my question is this: How is partially or fully boundness judged for the other armour slots (assuming you can fill them)? E.g. boots, gloves, cloak, hat --
1a. am I fully bound only when all of these are cursed, partially only when 2 + body?
1b. And if so, is the bonus which to skills based purely off the body slot?
1c. Finally: For species lacking body slot, which skills are boosted?
2. Since Ash apparently only appreciates exploring and (in my limited experience with him her it) doesn't appreciate any kills, how are you supposed to use the more expensive skills later in the game without becoming an apostate? Once you use the more expensive skills (transfer knowledge), are you supposed to go to the abyss and wander around as much as possible once mid-game is over and progression is slower?

thanks

1a yes, for a species with normal armour slots. An actopode is fully bound in armour with a cursed hat

1b yes
1c species without a body slot airways get a stealth+Dodge boost

2 if you're walking around fully bound, you can use Transfer Knowledge a lot without ever going below 5* piety. Use your skills whenever you think they'd be vaugly useful so long as you have at least 6* piety and you'll be fine. There's a lot of exploration to do even in a normal 3-rune game.

My favourite way to pay Ash is to go heavy into magic, and prioritize cursing jewelry, then weapon and shield. You don't have to worry at all about the late-game utility of your skills, you can dive into a new spell school very quickly, manuals are never water, the spellskill boost is great, and you can adapt to any demonspawn mutations / Draconian colour changes etc.
You do have to be a bit careful about conserving cure Scrolls, and it can be worth wearing pre-cursed equipment.

Thanks. I didn't expect that with enough exploration. I am thinking of trying Ash with a Gnoll, since then all of my aptitudes would be very high to make the most of the boost. Or is that silly?

Additional quick question: Is the flag "helmet armour" a technical term meaning "head slot" or does it literally mean it is a kind of helmet (and not hat)?
i ask because I cannot wear helmets, only hats, and see a +0 mask of the dragon being sold in a shop that might suit me well, but it doesn't say in the in-game description if this is considered a hat (as you might imagine a "mask" to be) or a helmet (as the flag is listed) and I am short on cash for experiments. thanks!

onomastikon wrote:Thanks. I didn't expect that with enough exploration. I am thinking of trying Ash with a Gnoll, since then all of my aptitudes would be very high to make the most of the boost. Or is that silly?

That depends: do you consider a 4.0 skill bonus to all spell schools and Evocations silly?

I do like Ashenzari games (mostly casters) because of the shift in playstyle. Other deity choices can give you all sorts of boosts and save options directly through actives - almost everything the Shackled offers is passive, and moves you towards using the abundant knowledge in the opposite way. With Ashciples you want to scout ahead, prepare your actions in advance based on that, and then execute them. Many others will give you actives that you rely on because of your lack of knowing: 1) if there are enemies behind walls/doors 2) what these enemies are and what they're capable of 3) what the overall layout of the dungeon/branch is and how you can plan your positioning
The worst thing about playing this way is that failing to plan ahead can leave you in a bad place, with no panic button like Sanctuary, and low on other resources. Make sure to not get complacent and you'll have a blast playing.

Edit: yes, any form of armour you can wear in a given slot counts towards the bouns: hat and helmets, scarves and cloaks. The Mask can be cursed just like any other head armour.

onomastikon wrote:Thanks. I didn't expect that with enough exploration. I am thinking of trying Ash with a Gnoll, since then all of my aptitudes would be very high to make the most of the boost. Or is that silly?

It's slightly silly, in that the skill boost is a flat +X, independent of your aptitudes. (X does depend on piety and curses, and is reduced if your base skill is <1.)

Gnolls^Ash are still quite strong, even despite missing out on Transfer Knowledge. There's a guide to GnollWizard^Ash out there somewhere.

Thanks for that. Quick follow up:
- I don't like reading guides, in any game (because I end up copying a lot and that is not good for me). But I did read the Wiki site on Ash and it says here (http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Ashenzari) that it is up to date for .23 and that "The bonus respects skill aptitudes, so a higher aptitude skill will get a better bonus, all else being equal." Am I misunderstanding? I thought this means: If I have a huge +6 or +8 bonus to my aptitudes as a gnoll, I will be getting large boni?
- In another game I am playing a Tengu, and cannot wear helmets, only hats. I want to know if I can wear the Mask of the Dragon, and this is in a shop (not on the floor) so I cannot tell by the description, which has the flag "helmet" but it seems like a "hat". Which is it?
thank you very much

onomastikon wrote:So I want to try something new and am having some difficulty understanding Ashenzari. I find little indication of what exactly he does and requires in game.

Gods aren't "he".

1. The wiki says boni Ash gives increase the more slots you have partially or fully bound. The majority of the table listed there is taken up with "armour", for which I assume this means the body armour slot. But since you cannot get light, medium, or heavy encumberance on any slot but body, my question is this: How is partially or fully boundness judged for the other armour slots (assuming you can fill them)?

Slots aren't partially or fully bound. You are partially bound in armour if more than half of the armour slots you actually have are cursed. You are fully bound if all the slots are cursed. (This is the same rule used for jewellery).

Which skills are boosted is then based on the encumbrance of your body armour. (No body armour counts as "light" encumbrance, something I've updated the wiki to reflect.)

2. Since Ash apparently only appreciates exploring and (in my limited experience with him her it) doesn't appreciate any kills, how are you supposed to use the more expensive skills later in the game without becoming an apostate? Once you use the more expensive skills (transfer knowledge), are you supposed to go to the abyss and wander around as much as possible once mid-game is over and progression is slower?

You rarely want to use Transfer Knowledge very many times, and you're certainly not "meant" to go abyss-scumming. I'm not sure what progression is slower once the mid-game is over - there are still new levels to explore and you are likely to have cursed most or all of your gear maximising piety gain.

There isn't really a difference with exploration gods here, especially with the 0.21 removal of monster spawns; an unexplored level represents a fixed quantity of piety whether your god values kills or exploration.

i (...) see a +0 mask of the dragon being sold in a shop that might suit me well, but it doesn't say in the in-game description if this is considered a hat (as you might imagine a "mask" to be) or a helmet (as the flag is listed) and I am short on cash for experiments.

Useless items are shown in dark grey. If this item is not shown as useless, you can wear it. If it is useless, Ctrl-F won't find it unless you explicitly show useless items.

But I did read the Wiki site on Ash and it says (...) that "The bonus respects skill aptitudes, so a higher aptitude skill will get a better bonus, all else being equal."

That was in error (my error, I fear) and has been corrected.

onomastikon wrote:In another game I am playing a Tengu, and cannot wear helmets, only hats. I want to know if I can wear the Mask of the Dragon, and this is in a shop (not on the floor) so I cannot tell by the description, which has the flag "helmet" but it seems like a "hat". Which is it?
thank you very much

It's a hat. ("Crowns" are also hats.)

So elemental staves say that if you know both the element and evocations, you can ouchify your target. Does that mean
1. damage scales off these skills, so that you do not need staves skill or fighting skill? or
2. main damage comes from staves and fighting, and the ouchification is "just extra"? or
3. something else

Damage scales with elemental skill and evocations, so you need only 12 staves skill (for attack delay) and no strength or fighting. (Slaying still helps.)

petercordia wrote:Damage scales with elemental skill and evocations, so you need only 12 staves skill (for attack delay) and no strength or fighting. (Slaying still helps.)

Will staves skill and fighting help me to hit? I don't attack too often with a staff, I wonder if investing in the staves skill is worth it for delay alone?

onomastikon wrote:
petercordia wrote:Damage scales with elemental skill and evocations, so you need only 12 staves skill (for attack delay) and no strength or fighting. (Slaying still helps.)

Will staves skill and fighting help me to hit? I don't attack too often with a staff, I wonder if investing in the staves skill is worth it for delay alone?

Yes, both help to-hit, they do actually increase damage very slightly too, but since the base damage of staves is terrible, the amount of damage it scales is very very poor. (Note that since fighting also increases your hps, it's probably worth training some fighting anyway, staying alive is a very good way to do more damage.)

Thank you for the help!
I do seem to train at least a good amount of fighting on all my characters, just for the hp. Maybe i'll train a wee bit of staves, but I don't want to rely on bashing with them for min delay as a caster.

onomastikon wrote:Thank you for the help!
I do seem to train at least a good amount of fighting on all my characters, just for the hp. Maybe i'll train a wee bit of staves, but I don't want to rely on bashing with them for min delay as a caster.

It's best to look at bashing things with staves as a "MP cost reduction plan" it keeps your MP reserve high for real fights, and that way you don't need to rest as much or lower your available MP pool to cleanup popcorn or badly injured things. At min delay with your primary elemental skill decently high and some evocations (say 8-10) you should be able consistently kill even mildly dangerous stuff with no MP, leaving your big nukes for things that might present a threat if left alone to attack you.

It's definitely of secondary importance though (And if you have some source of MP regeneration it may be completely redundant)

I seem to almost never train evocations much at all (unless I'm doing something like Trog) -- is 8-10 fairly standard? I seem to usually forget it at 4. Bad?

Evocations form a very powerful toolbox. I'd usually train it to 16 if using a staff, and above 10 unless I have a good reason not to.

The disadvantage is it makes all your games more similar and leads to increased inventory pressure.

If you've never tried training Evocations I'd definitely give it a try. It's only bad if it reduces your fun

Super!

Small question: Trying Ash, found 2 rings and 2 scrolls of remove curse and got both my rings cursed, but Ash says I am not bound in jewellery, not even partially bound. (I am a gnoll, and have thus 2 ring and 1 amulet slot.) Shouldn't I be partially bound if I have both rings and thus 2 from 3 bound? (Havent found an amulet yet to test...)

onomastikon wrote:Small question: Trying Ash, found 2 rings and 2 scrolls of remove curse and got both my rings cursed, but Ash says I am not bound in jewellery, not even partially bound. (I am a gnoll, and have thus 2 ring and 1 amulet slot.) Shouldn't I be partially bound if I have both rings and thus 2 from 3 bound? (Havent found an amulet yet to test...)

You should; can we see a dump?

damerell wrote:
onomastikon wrote:Small question: Trying Ash, found 2 rings and 2 scrolls of remove curse and got both my rings cursed, but Ash says I am not bound in jewellery, not even partially bound. (I am a gnoll, and have thus 2 ring and 1 amulet slot.) Shouldn't I be partially bound if I have both rings and thus 2 from 3 bound? (Havent found an amulet yet to test...)

You should; can we see a dump?

edit: I see now in the dump, the other ring is cursed but apparently not worn!! I dont understand why, I must have misclicked. Sorry!

petercordia wrote:
onomastikon wrote:Thanks. I didn't expect that with enough exploration. I am thinking of trying Ash with a Gnoll, since then all of my aptitudes would be very high to make the most of the boost. Or is that silly?

It's slightly silly, in that the skill boost is a flat +X, independent of your aptitudes. (X does depend on piety and curses, and is reduced if your base skill is <1.)

Gnolls^Ash are still quite strong, even despite missing out on Transfer Knowledge. There's a guide to GnollWizard^Ash out there somewhere.

IMO it's better this way, lets those with questionable aptitudes get more use out of Ash.

Skills increase very drastically in cost as you go higher in each. Like taking one skill to 20 costs roughly what taking two different skills to 16 costs (assuming equal aptitudes). So Ash is particularly helpful for those spreading skill investment (if the skills are useful) and for those with poor aptitudes. Even a bad aptitude set like mummy can get a lot of stuff castable in medium armor when fully bound under Ash, just investing into early teens in a couple spell schools. Won't let you trivially cast shatter or something but anything level 7 or less will take pretty minimal XP investment (far less than other species not following Ash). Of course this sacrifices access to panic abilities available under alternative gods, but since mummies also lack inherent sInv and clarity is especially important to them vs enemies that can confuse (such as spider) this is still a pretty reasonable choice for them and many other species.

Gnoll blasters benefit more from Vehumet, but for non-blaster spells Ash is more useful. Better for using a good weapon + still good spells than Okawaru too since you can also boost weapon skill significantly. Though I'd advocate 1h weapons (less skill for mindelay) and shield on gnolls since they're training shield anyway and shields are pretty good.

So I reached "illuminatus" status with Ash but was unable to gain the ability "transfer knowledge", so I thought perhaps this comes at max piety and the wiki might be mistaken again. Now at max piety, I still cannot use or find this ability.
Is this because I am a Gnoll and Gnolls are unable to use this ability? (I don't see a mention of that anywhere in-game or on the wiki). I was hoping to use the base skills I have accumulated as a gnoll but for which I have no current use to those I do favour. Is this impossible as a Gnoll? How sad for my first Ash try...

Gnolls cannot use transfer knowledge. Transfer knowledge is not a strong ability - do not feel missing out on something, for many other Ash characters it is also compleletly useless, and it is very week even for those who actually benefit from using it.

Ash's main powers are the skillboost, monster detection and scrying. They are both very useful for gnolls (or others). Use scrying.

OK thanks. Perhaps I am misunderstanding transfer knowledge, seemed like a good idea to get those hard-to-earn high level skills higher.

Normally, I find literally dozens of scrolls of remove curse in a game. Usually I end up dumping them somewhere because I have so many scrolls of identify; having 30 or so don't seem uncommon to me. For my first time playing Ash, I have used about 6 so far, but that is all I have found. Is this crazy irony or is this somehow intentionally coded (IF x THEN spawn y)?

onomastikon wrote:OK thanks. Perhaps I am misunderstanding transfer knowledge, seemed like a good idea to get those hard-to-earn high level skills higher.

Normally, I find literally dozens of scrolls of remove curse in a game. Usually I end up dumping them somewhere because I have so many scrolls of identify; having 30 or so don't seem uncommon to me. For my first time playing Ash, I have used about 6 so far, but that is all I have found. Is this crazy irony or is this somehow intentionally coded (IF x THEN spawn y)?

The irony in DCSS is not crazy, just a fun thing to notice every now and then.To quote another taverner, it's "just the RNG being R". This game is one example, if you make another character under Ashenzari you'll be just as likely to have 10 or so extra scrolls for no reason whatsoever - with almost no equipment to use them on.

Transfer Knowledge would be game-breakingly good on a Gnoll. That's why it's disabled. I did warn you at this

Usually I'd use Transfer Knowledge to use a dagger in the early game, switch to a good artefact in the mid game, and switch to a staff in the late game, and to adapt to the spells I found (eg switching from blaster-caster to summoner). As a Gnoll you can do most of these things anyway (though to a lesser degree), so you're not missing out on too much.

petercordia wrote:Transfer Knowledge would be game-breakingly good on a Gnoll. That's why it's disabled. I did warn you at this

Sorry, I must have missed that. I see now that you wrote "despite missing out on TK" in a previoius post, but I was unable to interpret what that meant.

Edit: Your English is really good. Can I guess that you are also (like me) a German speaker?

onomastikon wrote:Edit: Your English is really good. Can I guess that you are also (like me) a German speaker?

Dutch actually

Super!

And you are right, Ash is fun, very different from how I have been playing so far, very rewarding for thinking ahead more.

I'm now trying a ghoul for the first time, started as an EE and stumbled over an early Kiqu alter on D4, and decided to try it. So far, I am not really overwhelmed; while I am doing fine now, I am pretty unimpressed with him as a caster. He is mostly meleeing, having found a decent weapon early. I'm currently just starting Lair. While Kiqu doesn't seem bad, I am not really sure what to do with him later; I can't use half the spells in the Necronomicon, but a pain brand will also not help me once I leave the standard living monster areas.
Here is my question: I have never switched gods before, ever, I've always just stuck it through. Maybe this would be a guy to try it on. I'm thinking to get the final gift, if I am still alive, do Crypt and who knows maybe risk Tomb, and then try switching to a god who boosts skills. Was thinking of trying Ash or Chei. Silly idea? When do you people switch gods?

Switching from one of the best gods (Kiku) to one of the worst (Chei) - yes, I would call it silly.

Are you using Kiku's corpse delivery (and then animate dead or simulacrum or something) often enough? My guess is no.

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