New to casters, MP issues?


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Temple Termagant

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Post Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:47

New to casters, MP issues?

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... artato.txt

Pardon my noobiness if I misuse terms, haven't played for a while.

Playing a draconic conjurer, having trouble getting end game spells due to loot/god RNG. But what's really driving me up the wall is a lack of mana. I have absolutely no staying power in a fight, and I have trouble casting mid game magic. Even if I found decent spells going forward I feel like I'd be a one pump chump at best which seems odd.

Right now for example, I had to just give up on the orcish mines due to Saint Roka camping the stairs to L2. I just don't have the MP to kill him.

Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:53

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

That's rough, especially since they yanked draconian ability to wear body armour. Casters are strong early game,and late game, but not for the faint of heart mid game. Your best bests are god choices Vehumet/Sif, or if you dabble with necromancy there is sublimation of blood. Look for mana regeneration amulet. When you come across a heavily armoured target with a lot of health like Saint Roka, as a weakling low level caster, you're often better off unloading charges of stuff like wand of paralysis, using confusion or other debilitating types of effects on them (until you get it, you keep running away and resetting) and then killing them with the assistance of stuff like poisoned daggers. You can be better off with a different race in my opinion... like a deep elf fire elementalist, or a tengu air elementalist. But, it's not your imagination that spell casting can be "challenged" versus brute melee builds.

Zot Zealot

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Post Saturday, 27th April 2019, 23:23

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

Yes it looks like you were quite unlucky with spells. If you had some level 6+ conjuration spells you could kill things more mana efficiently. As it is your only spell with a level > 4 is Spellforged Servitor
Consider memorising Poison Arrow. I think it will increase your single-target damage/mana, though I don't have much experience with it myself. (I used it once, and it was quite good, but I don't like spell schools which are useless in extended.) You could amnese Force Lance for spell levels.
In my experience it is quite normal for a mage to have no staying power. I usually don't mind. If you kill something before you run away it's worth it. If you run away and come back later it's also not too bad, at least you don't die :D
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 00:02

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

His spell list is fine, he just needs to use summons.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 13

Joined: Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:43

Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 00:17

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

Thanks for the replies.

How do summons help me? All of my DPS is line of sight and/or AoE. I didn't think summons would be much use other than the servitor which tbh hasn't seemed super useful. It doesn't seem to cast very often and for the mana it costs I could have just cast those spells myself.

Although I think the poison arrow idea is interesting. Maybe my problem is in part my spells plinking off AC. Elemental damage of some kind could help me a lot.

I'm also using that +7 longsword instead of my staff of conjuration. My main interest in this has been due to running out of mana and needing to clean up small critters as well as get riposts while firing point blank spells. Not sure if this was a good idea in retrospect.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 00:29

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

Your best spell is lightning spire and you've already used the skill points to get it working, so you should use it. You should be able to do swamp with what you have no problem.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

For this message the author tealizard has received thanks:
duvessa

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:43

Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 00:50

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

Tried out lightning spire, it does seem to be pretty effective. Certainly great on the MP/damage output.

Vehumet seemed to appreciate it. He immediately offered me Orb of Destruction. Only way I can get it before it rotates out is probably to drop spellforged servitor (which was also a gift, so I couldn't get it back necessarily). Seems like a good trade since OoD is popular from what I can tell. Thoughts?
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 01:04

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

I would clear out some of your low level spells and use orb with servitor. Between lightning spire, orbs, cflame, and sticky flame, you should be fine. You want your servitor to use orbs, not mystic blast and similar garbage.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 13

Joined: Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:43

Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 01:09

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

Don't have the amnesia scrolls to drop more than one spell atm. Yeah I've been doing a lot of work with those two fire spells to make up for mystic/force losing their oomf.

I'll see if I can get a level + dropping a spell fast enough to get orb to use with servitor.

Zot Zealot

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Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 01:20

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

You'll get a spell level if you train half a level of dodging. If you want OoD of recommend training 100% spellcasting and using a skill target.

Blades Runner

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Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 02:05

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

Boartato wrote:Thanks for the replies.

How do summons help me? All of my DPS is line of sight and/or AoE. I didn't think summons would be much use other than the servitor which tbh hasn't seemed super useful. It doesn't seem to cast very often and for the mana it costs I could have just cast those spells myself.

Although I think the poison arrow idea is interesting. Maybe my problem is in part my spells plinking off AC. Elemental damage of some kind could help me a lot.

I'm also using that +7 longsword instead of my staff of conjuration. My main interest in this has been due to running out of mana and needing to clean up small critters as well as get riposts while firing point blank spells. Not sure if this was a good idea in retrospect.


Summons are good in situations where you are fighting one or a limited number of enemies for their distraction properties (and confusion in the case of lightning spire). Be aware however that frequent use of summoning to kill things will drain a significant amount of XP. This isn't made very obvious to casual players. Some will argue that it doesn't matter, and others feel that it does. That is a big can of worms to open here, so suffice to say that you were warned. I limit my use of summons, and most games do not train summoning at all until I find Aura of Abjuration, and then it is usually my only summoning spell. Dragon call is good but not relevant until far enough into games that you'd already know when and why you'd want to use it. Lightning spire and mana vipers are probably the two strongest lowish level summon spells if you have a limited spell selection and you just need to stay alive. Also, be aware that summons cause a fair amount of noise. This is not good if you are going for ranged conjuration killing style. They also get in your way when targeting and you waste time ordering them around. I'd say sniping and hit 'n run is more effective for a more lightly armoured spell caster. Melee which use supplemental summons won't care about the noise level as much. I suggest just training evocations and using spiders and beasts and those water monsters if you want some distracting fodder from time to time instead of investing in summons, because you'll get additional utility for the other types of evocations as well.

Poison arrow is an excellent spell and i would consider training for it in any spell caster game. I've used it to kill everything up to Pan lords and bosses. It used to be even better, but it's still good. I only wish it was possible to find it more often. As it stands, it's extremely hard to find poison arrow, so maybe that will tell you something. The main consideration is just how it may affect you splitting up your XP between schools. At least it isn't that hard to cast, and you can spend more on conjurations than poison and still get a lot of other utility from other schools simultaneously. Toxic radiance and mephitic cloud are pretty nice for mid game so if you have either of those, it's an easier sell. I'd say go for it, and see how you like it. I think you will.

Sticky flame is better for a warrior/fire hybrid because it works better with more AC. You don't want to get splattered while attempting to apply it. In this case you would use fire for early game, combined with melee or ranged, but you wouldn't advance into high level fire spells until much, much later. Instead you'd build more of a melee character with a few low level support spells.

For elemental damage, my top picks would probably be fireball and ignition. Ignition is more pricey, but it's awesome. Air is good for shock, air strike and deflect missiles. Lightning bolt is a real disappointment most of the time, sadly, otherwise I'd play way more tengus. Most of the bolt spells miss fairly often, and seem like they really drain your mana, especially fighting single tough enemies, so while I used to love getting them, more recently I've been avoiding them more often.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 13

Joined: Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:43

Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 02:48

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

I see what you mean about the summons costing me half my XP since I'm letting them do the work. They've vastly improved my stamina in a fight and my killing power, so it's a tough call. Will they keep me alive long enough to get the additional XP I need to make up for it, or will the lack of levels kill my endgame potential. I ended up getting OoD instead of poison bolt. I'll see what I can do about avoiding using summons for trivial fights to scum the XP I guess.

Endgame debate aside, tealizard's advice was significantly on point. Thanks for that man.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 06:54

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

You don't need to get too hung up on using summons to kill things. Worst case is half xp, land some damage on them yourself and you'll get more. It's not a big deal.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

For this message the author tealizard has received thanks: 2
duvessa, nago

Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 15:00

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

50% XP sucks... but you know what sucks more? Dying.

Many times now Spellforged servitor has saved my ass killing things as I run away with low MP (Which as you can see is almost a death sentence with a caster)

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:43

Post Sunday, 28th April 2019, 19:22

Re: New to casters, MP issues?

I was trying to self cast more. It was dangerous on the MP consumption, but I was easily one shotting dragons and the like with orb. The actual issue was hunger, with 13 spellcasting orbs were max hunger or 1 pip below. Got rid of mystic blast but kept force lance and very much liked the combo of kiting vs panic options.

Died being stubborn about a stair dance in the swamp that was in retrospect too dangerous for my capabilities at the time. Thanks for the help everyone.

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